Help with ID / Sexing / & General questions

[VinceC]

Hey all i just bought my new 1" second instar scorpion. I need some help verifying ID & sex. Also i have a few questions on my mind

1) Was sold to me as: Heterometrus longimanus, Is this what it is?? I just want to make sure its not another Heterometrus species like spinifer and i dont know about it.. lol

2) It was sold unsexed, Looks to me to be male, correct??

3) If it is longimanus iv heard that the male pincers of this particular species grow larger then females, is this correct??

4) Again assuming its longi, What is the full grown adult size? spinifer is 4"-5" and these are supposed to be bigger aren't they?

 

[Michiel]

Hi,

1) you cannot ID instar 2 scorpions satisfactory, they are too small and many important taxonomical characters aren't fully developed yet;
2) Yes, in H.longimanus (if it is that species) the males have elongated chela, hence their speciesname;
3) Adult size is not that a big of a difference 4-6 inches;
4) It looks like a male to me, but I am not an expert in Scorpionids, so wait for the answers of others, that do. My field is more the Buthids.

Cheers, Michiel

 

[VinceC]

Hi,

1) you cannot ID instar 2 scorpions satisfactory, they are too small and many important taxonomical characters aren't fully developed yet;
2) Yes, in H.longimanus (if it is that species) the males have elongated chela, hence their speciesname;
3) Adult size is not that a big of a difference 4-6 inches;
4) It looks like a male to me, but I am not an expert in Scorpionids, so wait for the answers of others, that do. My field is more the Buthids.

Cheers, Michiel

Thank you for your answer, it helps alot. I was unaware that ID'ing a second instar was not possible, I posted about it before i bought it and someone told me to take pic's like i did.

Theres got to be someone who can tell at this early state? :wall:

 

[Galapoheros]

I think some professionals/experts could ID it for you some how with more info from you, but to me it's like Michiel said here, with pics on this site anyway. However I think you can narrow it down to fewer possibilities at least. I know some early instar Heterometrus have a very white telson(I don't have the knowledge to list them) until the last molt, sometimes next to the last molt, yours already has a very dark telson, that is def a line to narrow it down if you could find the info. Yours also has a matte finish on it that looks natural to me(not dirty(?) ), it's not shiny, that's characteristic of laoticus and petersii, don't know what else if any more. If I "had" to guess, I'd lean towards H. laoticus or petersii, don't know of course. Many pectine teeth too so I lean to it being a male also. It's so hard to tell on the internet by comparing pics of Heterometrus too, there are some pdfs also but good luck with some of those also, mainly because it's early instar. And I give up on looking at picture IDs with adults with sometimes 3 or 4 species labeled the same species all over the place when it comes to several Hetermetrus sps.

 

[Michiel]

I think some professionals/experts could ID it for you some how with more info from you, but to me it's like Michiel said here, with pics on this site anyway. However I think you can narrow it down to fewer possibilities at least. I know some early instar Heterometrus have a very white telson(I don't have the knowledge to list them) until the last molt, sometimes next to the last molt, yours already has a very dark telson, that is def a line to narrow it down if you could find the info. Yours also has a matte finish on it that looks natural to me(not dirty(?) ), it's not shiny, that's characteristic of laoticus and petersii, don't know what else if any more. If I "had" to guess, I'd lean towards H. laoticus or petersii, don't know of course. Many pectine teeth too so I lean to it being a male also. It's so hard to tell on the internet by comparing pics of Heterometrus too, there are some pdfs also but good luck with some of those also, mainly because it's early instar. And I give up on looking at picture IDs with adults with sometimes 3 or 4 species labeled the same species all over the place when it comes to several Hetermetrus sps.

No Galapoheros,

An expert will tell him the same as I did, you cannot ID 2nd instars to species level because....etc etc This is what I was told when I asked Kovarik, Lourenco about species etc etc.....It is evident that it is a Heterometrus sp. (in this case, you can ID on genus level with a picture, but often even that is not possible, when genera and/ or species are closely related.)

People on the internet really underestimate how hard it can be to identify scorpions (this is including myself, up till 2006 or so), even with a microscope, all the literature, multiple preserved specimens from both sexes etc etc.. I work in the Netherlands Centre for Biodiversity (Former RMNH/ NCB Naturalis) and currently working on Surinamese Buthids and Chactids. I am not telling this to be arrogant, but just to show, that I am not saying things or making things up. All you are invited to join me in the museum, and I will show you.....Then you would know and fully understand.....

In this stage one could only say Heterometrus sp. and that's about it........

Greets, Michiel

 

[Galapoheros]

Well that does seem odd but I will have to go with that, I just can't leave out some doubt though, I guess I'm stubborn but I think of things like setae count, tooth count or dentition on the chela, seems many other characteristics there might be to look at in comparing two 2nd instar of diff Heterometrus, maybe leaving out adult characteristics in comparing. So setae count must change with molts(?), these are things I don't know and that is the problem, I know, but in a common sense way it is so hard to believe. I expect somebody to figure out a way to tell later.

 

[Michiel]

Well that does seem odd but I will have to go with that, I just can't leave out some doubt though, I guess I'm stubborn but I think of things like setae count, tooth count or dentition on the chela, seems many other characteristics there might be to look at in comparing two 2nd instar of diff Heterometrus, maybe leaving out adult characteristics in comparing. So setae count must change with molts(?), these are things I don't know and that is the problem, I know, but in a common sense way it is so hard to believe. I expect somebody to figure out a way to tell later.

Stubborn is not a problem, ignorance would be If a certain guy wasn't stubborn decades ago, we wouldn't have peneciline today now would we
Exactly, young do not have fully developed trichobothrial patterns, setae those are the structures I was talking about. It takes a longer period for some of those structures to fully develop, with each successive molts.
Ever hear a 2nd instar Rhopalurus junceus/ garridoi/ pintoi stridulate? That's because those structures aren't fully developed.


Btw, there are books and papers in which these things are explained. You could look into those, if you want to learn more. I believe The biology of scorpions can be read online. I learned this from discussing with scorpiologists....The explanations that I give a simplyfied, because I have limited time to answer any more questions.

Cheers, Michiel

 

[telow]

yeah thats a shot in the dark trying to id they that young
all the granulations and ext are just developing so it would be a crap shoot
at an id until it matures and you can have a positive id on them

 

[VinceC]

So since i have to wait for it to grow to know exactly what it is, this begs the question: whats the typical growth rate with these guy's?

Obviously temp, feeding and individual genetics are all factors with all arachnids, but i mean typically for this species?

 

[deadly_elegance]

Hey all i just bought my new 1" second instar scorpion. I need some help verifying ID & sex. Also i have a few questions on my mind

1) Was sold to me as: Heterometrus longimanus, Is this what it is?? I just want to make sure its not another Heterometrus species like spinifer and i dont know about it.. lol

2) It was sold unsexed, Looks to me to be male, correct??

3) If it is longimanus iv heard that the male pincers of this particular species grow larger then females, is this correct??

4) Again assuming its longi, What is the full grown adult size? spinifer is 4"-5" and these are supposed to be bigger aren't they?

where did you bought it?, im from the Philippines and i've seen hundreds of H.longimanus, and i think it's not a H.longimanus, it lacks the carapace granulation of a tru H.longimanus, the carapace of a H.longimanus must be shinier than yours and a direct giveaway at least for me is the color of the telson, in early instars of heterometrus longimanus and H.spinfers the telson's color is white turning reddish brown as they become adults, in your picture i dont know if it's the lighting or else but it seems your scorpion has a much darker telson than a H.longimanus

and at 1 inch it's too big to be 2nd instar H.longimanus

I could be wrong tho'