Help NOT banning arachnids.

[Hanska]

As the topic says. I have been selected to represent spiders for a work group that is working on a possible ban on venomous/dangerous inverts.
I know what to write but given a short timespan I'd like your help.
Any and all scientific studies regarding the actual danger certain species/families could posess would be more than great.
I know they are aiming at Sicarius, Latrodectus and Phoneutria.
They're going by reputation if nothin else..
Help me to give actual, proven facts to shoot them down.

 

[grimmjowls]

Are you looking for something like this or... something different?

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Hello there.

Are you talking about Finland only (as i guess), or something involving even other European nations?

There's nothing i can do, sadly. Those are indeed "Hots", period. While isn't written in stone that a bite will always end into fatality, the % are high.

Italy, for instance, had all (all, really. Including the local ones) Arachnids banned in 2003, by politicians, stating garbage like this: "every Arachnid carry a venom able to kill, or invalidate people" and other "bla bla" crap.

The Italian Arachnid community didn't accepted that crazyness, of course, and fought hard for try to adjust things (trust me, when you are against ignorant as hell "those who rules", everything is a victory) so started to discuss, worked for that, and made a very fair enough list including the Arachnids that really possess a "Hot" or a somewhat "Hot" venom.

Obviously, genus Latrodectus (here the antidote/antivenom serum isn't available fast like in the US, btw) genus Phoneutria and genus Hexathelidae, genus Sicariidae (so obviously Loxosceles and their sand loving 'cousins') and so forth.

That was made, basically, for save all the Theraphosidae (no matter if NW, OW's, high strung or not, weak/high venom potency) and Spiders in general.

That's why here in Italy you can't own those. If you ask me, from a personal view/opinion, no matter the temperament (S.hahni, for instance, aren't exactly defensives) those are "Hots", and remain "Hots", so, while i hope of course that you guys manage to fix that issue the way you want, IMO i/we Italian Arachnid community aren't bothered at all by the fact that we can't keep (no more, prior 2003 was possible) "Hots".

 

[Hanska]

Are you looking for something like this or... something different?

Even that. Thanks.

 

[Hanska]

Crhris is just now in Finland. But it's the EU's national list that is making a point of species "dangerous for humans"(No they are not banning cows or horses)
I know there is facts that say even the most bad reputed spiders are not as danderous as the urban legends say.. But I need some good facts or I'm fighting ghosts...

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I know there is facts that say even the most bad reputed spiders are not as danderous as the urban legends say.. But I need some good facts or I'm fighting ghosts...

Who said that? For instance, Atrax robustus. Wandering 1.0 of those (males more powerful than females, venom potency speaking) are really actually potentially lethal. In Australia there's the list (13 if i'm not wrong?) of the folks killed by those. Granted, in a no anti-venom time, ok. But "you" don't want one of those into a Finland (or other European) house, for that, in the case of a bite, here there's no anti-venom ready available like in Australia E.R.

To ban those isn't exactly a stupid idea, c'mon now. We aren't talking about a 'Pokie', at the end.

Phoneutria nigriventer? Another one. People jokes with those "Hots", they don't see that, after a fatality, there's high chances % that all the Spiders will pay the price.

Hiding behind the "Oh, but i'm an expert and i know facts" doesn't help the Arachnid world, for that in this Internet, online era, i can name online sellers that, actually, sold Hots to complete beginners able to care for a L.parahybana to say the least. We can't pretend to live in a "expert only" world when in the world of today only cash matters.

What you/me/other experts can buy, others can when the "wrong" sellers are involved. They just need the Internet and cash.

About Sicarius hahni, and Sicariidae in general, only here where i live a man, years ago, ended up with 9 fingers thanks to Loxoscelism (he's fault, ok, because he underestimated the initial bite at first, but really? Lose a finger for a Spider bite? A no way, if you ask me) after a L.rufescens bite (here in Lombardy we are full of those, btw).

Now L.laeta (Chile) carry a venom a bit stronger than those, go figure their "sand" cousins.

I'm happy with the situation we have in Italy. We can have all the Spiders and T's we want, save for "Hots". Who cares about "Hots"? Not me.

 

[The Snark]

Are any intelligent people involved in this legal maneuver or just knee jerk fanatic politicians?
If the latter, you may be out of luck. Citing all the statistics in the world won't change fanatic fervor in the slightest. You would probably have more luck using the religious dodge and ranting how god gave us these so we should get bit and enjoy gods little nips or some similar idiocy. Scientific info just doesn't fly with the law makers but god BS might.
Cynic heading off to his corner. Ignore me.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Are any intelligent people involved in this legal maneuver or just knee jerk fanatic politicians?
If the latter, you may be out of luck. Citing all the statistics in the world won't change fanatic fervor in the slightest. You would probably have more luck using the religious dodge and ranting how god gave us these so we should get bit and enjoy gods little nips or some similar idiocy.

You are right but here in Italy worked. Politicians banned all Arachnids, the Italian Arachnid community managed to have back all the Theraphosidae and all the, non "Hot", Arachnids in general. I call that a nice victory, especially when facing such ignorance.

 

[The Snark]

This crap makes me want to scream. "LOOK YOU IDIOTS! Can you focus for a brief moment on the real hazards? Stupid people, vehicles, poisons and toxins in every inch of your environment, dozens of insects that are slaughtering people more effectively than mideast religious fanatics, and you're picking on spiders that give people a good zap about once every third blue moon. Get real!"

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

Not sure about Finland, but I don't think that there is even a noticeable amount of people in the U.S. keeping Sicarius or Phoneutria. Certainly not enough to cause any concern. Latrodectus are more common I believe, but they're in our backyards, literally everywhere (again, not sure about Finland). I wish the political world could understand.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Not sure about Finland, but I don't think that there is even a noticeable amount of people in the U.S. keeping Sicarius or Phoneutria. Certainly not enough to cause any concern. Latrodectus are more common I believe, but they're in our backyards, literally everywhere (again, not sure about Finland). I wish the political world could understand.

As far as i know in US Sicarius hahni (especially) seems quite well available. I agree with you about genus Phoneutria tough i have to say, don't know 100%.

Here in Europe there's tons of genus Latrodectus (at Marbach, Germany, had seen lot of those, years ago) plus even here in Italy we have a native one, Latrodectus tredecimguttatus, btw suspected of 4/5 fatalities in the late '80 - '91

 

[Andrea82]

There are a few people here as well that keep Sicarius and other hot true spiders. I'm not sure how i feel about that, and i believe the T community here is divided about keeping them as well. As an invert hobbyist i like to say to each their own, but as a mother...i would not like to live next door to a youngster who keeps a Sicarius sp to inflate his ego. The venom in these spiders, along with the fact that there is no antivenom fast available here as well makes me apprehensive about people keeping these species.
But i don't have a passionate feeling towards true spiders in general, so I can't relate to people who are.
I think a ban is very...definite. maybe permits would be better.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

There are a few people here as well that keep Sicarius and other hot true spiders. I'm not sure how i feel about that, and i believe the T community here is divided about keeping them as well. As an invert hobbyist i like to say to each their own, but as a mother...i would not like to live next door to a youngster who keeps a Sicarius sp to inflate his ego. The venom in these spiders, along with the fact that there is no antivenom fast available here as well makes me apprehensive about people keeping these species.
But i don't have a passionate feeling towards true spiders in general, so I can't relate to people who are.
I think a ban is very...definite. maybe permits would be better.

You are 100% right, let me add just another (IMO very important thing to consider by all of us Arachnid keepers) thing. The reason why i don't like that much, too keep too "Hots", or, and this is even worst, how easy (at least for us in Europe) is to obtain with the Internet those, is that, if things go wrong, there's high chances % that every Arachnid could pay the price. Happens when enter completely uneducated, but powerful people, in that.

I know because i remember pretty well (ah ah) what politicians did in Italy back in 2003, and they banned all the Arachnids (btw no bites nor else).

I have nothing personal against extremely experienced "Hot" keepers, but if you ask me, the risk of lose 'Avics', 'Pokies' and 'Baboons' only for the pleasure to have an enclosure... full of sand, like S.hahni are at the end, lol, or a wandering menace like a P.nigriventer, it's not worth IMO

 

[Chris LXXIX]

@Hanska

Hanska, listen to me, now. You maybe wouldn't like this, but i think could help if Finland government, or Finland "anti too much" something organizations are involved in the issue you mentioned.

Rely on what happened to Italy, in 2003. When the Italian government banned all Arachnids, but, after, the Italian Arachnid community, with a list of really "Hots" Arachnids, managed to fix things.

That's i think the best and fast way for save at least T's (OW's included) and not "Hots" Arachnids in general, but "you" guys would have to sacrifice all the "Hot" one Arachnids (Spiders and Scorpions, no matter).

You want facts, i can't give you one, for instance, about Sicarius hahni venom potency.

Because:
- There's valid bite reports to stand with? No.
- There's valid reasons (including the fact that no antivenom is available) for suggest that those are "Hots" ? Yes, IMO.

No need now to mention (again, mere examples) Atrax robustus nor P.nigriventer, because the folks killed by those (ok, in a NO antivenom time, but btw remember that we aren't living in Australia or Brazil, where the antivenom is ready available. Definitely, lol, my city Hospital doesn't have one) speaks alone.

Same for Latrodectus mactans, even if the death rate is low, and the "Hot" Scorpions.

Basically here in Italy what's banned today are only those who really are "medically significant", and for us, "medically significant" means only the risk of life, or somewhat permanent life disease, not that P.murinus able to send "you" to the E.R, in pain, in agony, but that's all (so far, lol).

 

[darkness975]

I do not believe in the banning of species. It is not fair to those who are responsible. But in today's awesome world I am just talking to brick walls most of the time. I used to love trying to talk to anyone about my invertebrates. Now, though, I have to consciously refrain myself. Better to avoid the ridicule.
The problem with "only banning this one or that one" is that it never stops there. Some idiot did not secure the lid of (insert random invertebrate, reptile, etc. here) and it bit someone.

Now they are reiterated on the media to be all bad, get rid of them all #OMGKILLITWITHFIRE, and all that crap.

 

[Hanska]

Thanks for the replies
I don't believe in total bans but I do agree that not everyone should get to buy somethings.
What we are now aiming for would be a system that bans nothing but sets restrictions for some animals.
This whole thing is not just an arachnid hunt, all venomous animals and larger reptiles are on the line of fire.

@Snark We(exotic animal keepers) even have our own representative in the work group.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I do not believe in the banning of species. It is not fair to those who are responsible.

The problem IMO is the Internet, a credit card, and sellers that doesn't exactly work for the Arachnid passion, but for cash only. Responsible (and experts) keepers are a minority only, on such cases.

- "Do you know that those are potentially lethal?" if asked at least.

- Reply: "Oh, yes, of course. I have bla bla experience etc bla blah"

Order, pay cash, shipping.

A UK young man i meet once on YT was a beginner, able to say the least to care for a L.parahybana (a Theraphosidae that, btw, he bought, of course). Well, he owns a Sicarius hahni as well, bought a week after, according to his words.

Now tell me if, Jesus Christ, such soft & silly behavior aren't annoying... but i blame certain sellers as well, not customers alone.

 

[The Snark]

Before I forget again, how about some modern day circle-logic that flies up it's own anal orifice?

It is considered an encroachment of your rights (in many countries where people have rights) to demand an individual qualify, by passing a test for example, before the person is allowed to keep certain hots. However, it is usually quite a bit easier to place countrywide restrictions on owning the same animals.

So, if the gov demands I prove I'm not an imbecile it is encroaching on my rights but if it decides everyone is an imbecile it is okay?

I assume people do know, realize, governments do this A LOT. As example, age limits on buying, possessing or consuming alcoholic beverages. Say a family, Greek or Italian as a good general example, has an ordinary traditional dinner. The cops come stomping in and the kids having the usual glass of wine with the parents approval get arrested. That is easy to get thrown out of court. But ban every kid in the state from the same, that's okay and works.

Personally I suspect they make these sweeping laws because if politicians had to individually pass reality check tests they would fail miserably.

 

[Andrea82]

@Hanska
I would try to work towards permits, instead of no regulation from the arachnid and venomous animals keepers, or a ban from the government.

@Chris LXXIX
I agree n the internet enabling purchase and selling of hots, not okay at all ..
We have an online market site, you can buy anything from toasters to horses on there. Two weeks ago, I saw an add for sicarius sp....only text in the add was 'poisonous but docile spider, fun to keep'
I positively went ballistic reading that...

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Personally I suspect they make these sweeping laws because if politicians had to individually pass reality check tests they would fail miserably.

Of course. But they are, and remain, those with the power, here. The fact, and btw an important fact one (again here in Italy) that Arachnids, unlike Dogs etc doesn't move cash at all, don't help. So no one, like happened for Pittbulls (ended in nothing) would stand up by the millions for that, including non keepers one and the first "Yahoo" of the street.

No one did such a thing, except us, for Arachnids, when happened to Arachnids.
Not even the "Snake" keepers, that, save for few exceptions, were, i even say, happy... those annoying elitists too busy backstabbing their back.


Here things work this way. Rights? Which rights? It's "our way or the highway" 90 out 100 in the boot when power is involved, and you can only try to "fix" things the best (or less worst) you can.

That's what we did. No more "Hots" but T's, and spiders, and scorpions, again. Better than a kick in the manly parts, ah ah :-s