handling agressive T's

G. pulchra

ArachnoGod
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I have kept T's for 25 plus years, and disagree that you can build "trust" with one. They are not domesticated, and act totally on instinct.
 

lunixweb

Arachnobaron
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Apr 15, 2007
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Well Becky, in all the things that you have said, I I almost agree but some times is necessary handle T's, don't go to the xtreme in this...

like Nbond1986 said:
-He should tell people, educate people, let them know whats going on.
There are plenty of naturalists that go around holding snakes and stuff for educational purposes and will often say things like "oh yeah, she's really pissed off, doesn't like being held" (God bless Steve Irwin, RIP)-

We must show people how to take care of them, the risks and new researches about this, and handling is a good way to do this.
 
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NBond1986

Arachnosquire
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Yep agree with that. I loved Steve Irwin personally..but he did it all for conservation and preservation of species... not for bloody youtube... he was a professional... can't really compare him and his work to the work of 2 guys and a video camera laughing about it...

Well, I think that you can compare his work with these 2 guys.....in some ways.....
Steve Irwin was lucky in that he inherited a lot of what he had from his father who originally opened a reptile park. But, true, his work was great and he is still my absolute hero.
These guys are trying to show the world about arachnids, a group that is rarely focused on, and little is known or appreciated. And, they aren't editing out the bad parts (T's escaping, getting stung by a scorp, etc). I really respect that. A lot of people will edit out those parts so they don't look stupid.
I say, that some newbie will watch the videos and get entranced by the magnificence of these animals! It's worth it to rid even ONE person of ignorance. These videos have the potential to spark the interest of many people into the world of arachnids! YouTube is an incredible tool.


If we can get through to one person at a time that these creatures are NOT monsters, but a beautiful part of God's design, then these videos have done far more good than bad.


While I do wholeheartedly understand your viewpoint, I don't particularly agree with it to a full extent. I hope you can see why.
 

P. Novak

ArachnoGod
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But whats the point?? If the T quietens down when its out of its environment its coz its not happy or comfortable... surely thats reason enough not to handle it?!

I'm sure many members would agree with me that the best way to pick up a T is to remove it from its enviorment. I'm pretty sure it's because they would rather run then fight.

I never said they were comfortable or happy with this; no T is happy when being bugged or being pushed to be handled.
 

beetleman

Arachnoking
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well ive got many ts and most of them are aggressive,yes in the past ive handled a few, but now in my opinion i don't anymore,their happy where they are i'm happy not messing with them.:)
 

Rathkeaux

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May 21, 2007
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I tend to view the handle vs. don't handle debate in a slightly different light. Basically I look at the possible positives/and or negatives that can come out of each encounter based on considerations of the involved variables.

First and foremost of course would be what the individual T. you are dealing with is comfortable with in the interest of making sure that no harm comes to it. As none of us are T. psychics, this can only be determined from knowledge of the specific T. and correctly analyzing the T's posturing and attitude at the time.

Secondly is weighing the positive intanglibles on those that would be effected by the presence of the T. outside or inside of a cage. I find people tend to be much more interested in all aspects of T's when they see that with the proper knowledge and experience these are creatures that you can in fact interact with. It is much easier to develop lasting emotional bonds with something that you can interact with in some way then it is to develop them with something that you look at in a cage. The positives of animal interaction can not be overlooked, many people find comfort and companionship from animals, and the animals whether we know it or not could possibly be acquiring positive's fromt he encounters as well. This can teach people that these are not creatures that need to be "feared" so much as creatures that should be respected and handled with knowledge.

Imposing the "Never handle/always look at them in the cage" attitude can reinforce basic negative views that the majority of people have towards these animals. It would be quite hard to convince someone who was arachnophobic or even just did not like spiders that they are fascinating creatures, which need not be feared, if you, the caretaker of the animals, constantly keep them caged out of fear or hurting/and or being hurt by the T.

Therefore if the possible positives(affecting people away from the "EEK! a Spider! squish it!" point of view, or therapeutic affects that interacting with them may have on oneself or others, I find handling reptiles and arachnids to be very calming. Even just giving the spider the chance to Explore.) of the possible encounter out weigh the possible negatives(likelyhood of harm to the T. or to yourself or anyone else) then go for it as long as you are comfortable in what you are doing.

I personally have encountered several arachnophobes in my life that a few interesting sessions with a G. rosea managed to completely turn around, thus helping them overcome an uncontrolable fear with knowledge and understanding. One of whom even went on to own a T. of his own.

Just my two cents, but I feel that videos such as MeaninglessEnds in general have a great influence on bringing new people into the hobby and do more to benefit future generations of T. keepers and the T's that they keep than any possible negative that could come to the individual T. Even if a T. was accidentally killed while being handled, if it was videoed and posted then it would help to show what not to do and therefore would still potentially benefit hundreds of other T.s
 

ShadowBlade

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First and foremost of course would be what the individual T. you are dealing with is comfortable with in the interest of making sure that no harm comes to it. As none of us are T. psychics, this can only be determined from knowledge of the specific T. and correctly analyzing the T's posturing and attitude at the time.
That is it right there my man (or..woman?).

And that is what I refer to by experience. When you've been dealing with fast/defensive species for awhile, you learn their behavior. This is what keeps me and the spider safe. Not luck, or guessing.

This is why I say, you can't tell someone they can handle Haplo's. Its between them and their T's. Don't do it if your specimen is going to get hurt.

Another thing to take into consideration. I don't handle my spiders all the time. Heck, once you've handled all your T's over a couple days, it becomes rather superfluous, and too much trouble to get one out.

After a couple years, you pretty much just let them do their thing. And when its time for re-housing, out they come, and you get to have a little fun.

-Sean
 

JMoran1097

Arachnoangel
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May 14, 2007
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I have kept T's for 25 plus years, and disagree that you can build "trust" with one. They are not domesticated, and act totally on instinct.
we've already clarified that it's the conditioning aspect that might drive a T to become friendlier with a caring owner.
 

Meaningless End

Arachnoknight
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i would just like to say thank you to all of you that have watched my videos and understand what it is that i am trying to do.. There have been many good points made about not handling T's and i do respect them. Becky i know you have it out for me a bit but i dont take that personaly at all and i do understand where your coming from and respect your belifes on the subject.. maby we could have some sort of truce on the topic... i realy dont like fighting with people and to continue this fight with you would just be a waist of time...

again for the record my T's dont get handled very often at all but some definatly more then others. (the psalmopoeus all come out about once a month)... some of my colection has only been handled once and it will probrably stay that way.

im still working my way to the S. subspinipes, dehani.... so far I havent had the balls to try that one.
 

NBond1986

Arachnosquire
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arachi american

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Oh so you're the fool that handles all them spiders on cam?? Yea.. seen a few of your vids and hated every single one of them... for one.. you and your friend c it as a game, and as fun to p*ss the spider off and then handle it... That maculata girl (who's gorgeous) was frightened to death. They threat posture for a reason.. its to say go away, not to give us humans more reason to annoy them and make them look big and scary then let people see how cool we are for handling them... *yawns* Only people that know nothing about T's and their behaviour will say "omg you're so cool for handling them spiders!!!" People who really care for and keep T's (as i've noticed by the comments on the videos) will think its appalling and disgusting, like i do!
The maculata hasn't even got a suitable setup!!! It's a arboreal spider in a terrestrial tank with nothing but a water bowl..no hide, no nothing...
It's wrong!
I really do hope you get bitten! By somethin like a pokie that will do you some damage! (Pokie vid "this girl doesnt like the feel of skin" **i know lets make her walk on my arm!!** :wall: :wall: :evil:

People like you annoy me.. takin pleasure in purposely annoying a spider...you shouldn't be allowed 2 keep the poor things. If that was someone teasing a dog, or tricking a bear (e.g. bear dancing) there'd be laws against it or something legal done about it...... Its out of order.

I respect my T's for the beautiful, wild creatures that they are. All of mine live as naturally in captivity as they can (e.g. burrowers have plenty of substrate and arboreals have plenty of height and things to web on and hide in/behind) Other people should too...
hi. i'm the other "idiot" behind the videos. either on or behind the camera. name's mike, nice to meet everyone.

i totally respect everyone's opinions on this subject. we definately pick and choose when to handle and when not to. if you dont believe me you should see my attemp at handling a haplopelma minax. i got my ass handed to me.

we both have a pretty clear understanding that, especially while trying to film, one of us is gonna get tagged. its not inevitable, but highly probably. this, while by FAR is not the goal of our little mini docs, which should be getting better as time goes on, this will be a great learning experience for both us, and those that get to view. plus some of you smug haters out there will get to say "i told you so" as many times as you'd like.

you know i'll just say "uh ya, i said so too."

i was attempting to film my irminia pairing tonight, show that we dont just "<edit> with spiders," but my vid camera has gone on the fritz. i guess ill post stills when she spins her sac.

cheers everyone. thanks for the support, positive or negative. keep it coming =)
 
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cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
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while it's not wise to handle such arachnids with a predetermined manner, some T's that are labeled as "aggressive" can actually build up a trust with their owner. i've seen a few photos of owners holding their baboons or cobalt blues. i suppose it kinda depends on how much experience one's had and how long they have owned the spider. however, there is not a single T that can be too predictable. any T, no matter how docile it may seem, has the potential to bite and inject venom. it's not really wise to handle any T, but if you want to take the risk and do so, that's your choice. we all have different reactions to the venom and sometimes the spider may just "dry bite," but i've heard it just feels like a splinter or bee sting.
it is not exactly a trust of the owner. it is more associating a new event with like, non-negative repercusions. it is like this Nat'l Geo article i was reading says beautifully, "the spider passes its life in hunger, uncertainty, fear, and trembling". but... they can do some kind of learning. the difference between the first time a tarantula with a good chemoreceptor suite in its feet walks on me and the tenth time is pretty dramatic. the first time i can barely get some stuff on to me. and by the time they are "used" to me they will walk on my skin with out any perceptible hesitation at all.

while it's not wise to handle such arachnids with a predetermined manner, some T's that are labeled as "aggressive" can actually build up a trust with their owner.
That is incorrect...a spider will not learn to trust a person..it's not in their nature... They don't have the brain capacity to remember things like that (no offence spidies! :D)

It's experience (and a bit of stupidity) when it comes to handling things like lividum, P. murinus etc And i personally wouldnt do it..too many risks to both T and handler.
T's read vibrations, so a nervous person who is panicking a bit is more likely to be be bitten than someone who is confident.
bold mine
this is silly. you are obviously seriously underestimating the tarantulas sensor systems and discrimatory power. their tremble sensors are built to read a cricets foot movements across a foot of stone. based on walking impacts they can triangulate and essentially WEIGH something tripping their tremble sensors. generally the problems tarantula have is from their chemorecptors, or chemical sensors, in their feet.

Oh so you're the fool that handles all them spiders on cam?? Yea.. seen a few of your vids and hated every single one of them... for one.. you and your friend c it as a game, and as fun to p*ss the spider off and then handle it... That maculata girl (who's gorgeous) was frightened to death. They threat posture for a reason.. its to say go away, not to give us humans more reason to annoy them and make them look big and scary then let people see how cool we are for handling them... *yawns* Only people that know nothing about T's and their behaviour will say "omg you're so cool for handling them spiders!!!" People who really care for and keep T's (as i've noticed by the comments on the videos) will think its appalling and disgusting, like i do!
The maculata hasn't even got a suitable setup!!! It's a arboreal spider in a terrestrial tank with nothing but a water bowl..no hide, no nothing...
It's wrong!
I really do hope you get bitten! By somethin like a pokie that will do you some damage! (Pokie vid "this girl doesnt like the feel of skin" **i know lets make her walk on my arm!!** :wall: :wall: :evil:

People like you annoy me.. takin pleasure in purposely annoying a spider...you shouldn't be allowed 2 keep the poor things. If that was someone teasing a dog, or tricking a bear (e.g. bear dancing) there'd be laws against it or something legal done about it...... Its out of order.

I respect my T's for the beautiful, wild creatures that they are. All of mine live as naturally in captivity as they can (e.g. burrowers have plenty of substrate and arboreals have plenty of height and things to web on and hide in/behind) Other people should too...
these are just the kind of posts i love! undereducated, underexperienced, and overopinionated :}

it's almost always the people with no handling experience and a somewhat poor grasp of tarantula and invert biology and husbandry that are sounding off, it seems. if handling is so bad then why have i never failed to breed a tarantula species? three attempts with two successes and a pending so far. never failed to produce a captive hatched clutch of tarantulas either. i have rediculous success with reproduction, molting, and feeding. these are the only genuince measures of success. all else is foolish anthropomorphizing and of ultimate detriment to the animals in questions.

Well, I think that you can compare his work with these 2 guys.....in some ways.....
Steve Irwin was lucky in that he inherited a lot of what he had from his father who originally opened a reptile park. But, true, his work was great and he is still my absolute hero.
These guys are trying to show the world about arachnids, a group that is rarely focused on, and little is known or appreciated. And, they aren't editing out the bad parts (T's escaping, getting stung by a scorp, etc). I really respect that. A lot of people will edit out those parts so they don't look stupid.
I say, that some newbie will watch the videos and get entranced by the magnificence of these animals! It's worth it to rid even ONE person of ignorance. These videos have the potential to spark the interest of many people into the world of arachnids! YouTube is an incredible tool.


If we can get through to one person at a time that these creatures are NOT monsters, but a beautiful part of God's design, then these videos have done far more good than bad.


While I do wholeheartedly understand your viewpoint, I don't particularly agree with it to a full extent. I hope you can see why.
i'm thinking my next tatoo and my first full pro one will be of steve irwin "wrassling" a toxic tiger centipede (S. polymorpha).

and i like to show people that all these "aggressive" species are typically only defensive... if that. i think a lot of hobbiest are lead to believe that some species are devils incarnate and only to be dealt with from behind bulletproof jackets and asbestos gloves, via 36" tweezers.

[YOUTUBE]BOTp99sgEF8[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]iEx5NTJ3sks[/YOUTUBE]
ah screw it. lol
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=cacoseraph

and i'd do a bunch of tara pics too, but stupid photobucket is a piece of crap










http://photobucket.com/albums/b287/cacoseraph/tarantula/handling/
 

DeTwan

Arachnoknight
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Feb 8, 2007
Messages
227
God you all are pathetic

This is one of the most inane threads I have ever come across... this much babal on handling spiders? Really people... oh and Cacoseraph... nice coke spoon on your pinky... you can fit a whole Hollywood bump on that thing! A real man handles his spiders with his third leg for god sakes...where are the pictures of that!
 

jr47

Arachnobaron
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Aug 4, 2005
Messages
597
They don't bond to a particular person per sey. They are not cats or dogs by any means. But my T's are living proof, that if you raise them from slings with a lot of handling and interaction, that not only do they NOT get stressed. But they don't throw up threat postures and they don't express any behaviors other than normal and healthy ones. When you can open an enclosure and get a spider to walk to your hand and get on it without treating it like food, you can see its become a part of thier life style. It doesn't hurt them in any way. My oldest is over 10 years old now, healthy and striking.

If I open an enclosure to say 'hi' and handle, if I don't get any positive reactions I let them sleep, or sit, or continue whatever they are doing. I definately don't think its wise to start poking them with sticks and tweezers to get them to be nice for handling, most likely the opposite. So again in my personal experience and those I know well, Tarantulas can most definately get accustomed to being handled in a comfort zone, if not thier owners.
as far as them not bonding with one person im not sure that is completly true. i think t's are no different than snakes in that respect and snakes do except certain people over others.
i seen an article years back written by a zookeeper in a reptile mag. he had a retic that one zookeeper could care for and the snake would be very calm and ignore him. anyone else went in the cage and tried to get close and she would attack them. ive also had people walk in when i had snakes and it was quite obvious that the snakes didnt like them at all.
im not saying that they can be like a dog and want to cuddle. just that i think they like about any other animal will respond differently to some people.
 

ShadowBlade

Planeswalker
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it is not exactly a trust of the owner. it is more associating a new event with like, non-negative repercusions.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I believe too, my theory is-

while they don't really 'remember' the events of handling, their instinct is to adapt, and with repeated handling and no damage, the smell and stimuli of handling gets written in as 'not a threat'.


Heck, its the guys like us handlings these 'freakin mean devils' that may finally prove to people that they're not all mean, and can be understood. You ever been bitten by a T while handling? I haven't.
Only time I've been bit were both accidents of working in the cage.

-Sean
 

jr47

Arachnobaron
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Messages
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as far as handling t's. i think its not the best idea. but i also have to say if its not done all the time then its not that big of a deal. they face all kinds of things in the wild everyday.
if its taken to the extreme i think its bad for the t. i also think alot of people do it just to try to prove they are cool. not everyone.
its just a matter of oppinion after all. i really dont think its worth people getting on here and calling names and such. its no different than handling snakes. they can get stressed out also but if you never handle them they also can get very mean. i use to take my snakes out and walk them around for an hour each week. didnt hurt them a bit. so, if you agree or not there is no proof that handling spiders once in a while will hurt them a bit. it may actually be good for them to get pumped up now and then.
 

markface

Arachnoknight
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Apr 19, 2007
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personally i dont see a poblem with handling T's as long as it's done resposibly . i work in a petshop and on occasion i will handle some of the less defensive T's so that customers can see that they are not as bad as many think they are . i havent handled any of the more agresive/defensive species yet because i dont feel confident enough to do so at this time . i never recommend handling to customers , but i do want them to know that T's are not the evil creatures that many believe they are . i know that atleast a few people have gone away with a better attitude about spiders than they came in with , so to me it's worth it .
 

KaineSoulblade

Arachnoknight
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as far as handling t's. i think its not the best idea. but i also have to say if its not done all the time then its not that big of a deal. they face all kinds of things in the wild everyday.
if its taken to the extreme i think its bad for the t. i also think alot of people do it just to try to prove they are cool. not everyone.
its just a matter of oppinion after all. i really dont think its worth people getting on here and calling names and such. its no different than handling snakes. they can get stressed out also but if you never handle them they also can get very mean. i use to take my snakes out and walk them around for an hour each week. didnt hurt them a bit. so, if you agree or not there is no proof that handling spiders once in a while will hurt them a bit. it may actually be good for them to get pumped up now and then.
I agree with the outlook Shadowblade has disclosed, largely. I agree with some points you have raised as well. I know my T's have never lifted a fang to me but when My girlfriend or a buddy holds a particular one, she gets a bit agitated. a leg or two usually become guarded and she is quicker to move at motions. If I take her back to my hands after this behavior has been demonstrated she reverts to being extremely docile and comfortable. This happens more often then not in the hands of others but not all the time, if she seems uncomfortable I take her right back.

Common sense says these guys dont know us, but my educated guess says she "smells" or "feels" my hand and or skin as Shadowblade stated earlier. So she recognizes the comfortable and non-threatening feel, which is me. One of my other T's wont hold still on anyone but me. She will sit in the palm of my hand and go to sleep untill I move her. This was my first tip-off as a tarantula owner that they know the difference though I can still agree with most skeptics that its not because of a bond but perhaps knowing that I am safe, non-threatening or comfortable. Take from it, what you will.
 

Becky

Arachnolord
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:confused:
these are just the kind of posts i love! undereducated, underexperienced, and overopinionated :}

it's almost always the people with no handling experience and a somewhat poor grasp of tarantula and invert biology and husbandry that are sounding off, it seems. if handling is so bad then why have i never failed to breed a tarantula species? three attempts with two successes and a pending so far. never failed to produce a captive hatched clutch of tarantulas either. i have rediculous success with reproduction, molting, and feeding. these are the only genuince measures of success. all else is foolish anthropomorphizing and of ultimate detriment to the animals in questions.
WTF?! Handling has nothing to do with anythin you have mentioned here :confused: :? I have success also with feeding, moulting, reproduction and i don't handle mine so what exactly are you tryin to point out? your post makes no sense to me tbh.......

And who are you to tell me i have no handling experience and a poor grasp of invert biology and husbandry????
How i see it, the ones who have something to say about handling because they are concerned about the welfare of the spiders obviously appreciate the spiders for what they are, and show more education, respect and care for the animals.
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
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:confused:
these are just the kind of posts i love! undereducated, underexperienced, and overopinionated :}

it's almost always the people with no handling experience and a somewhat poor grasp of tarantula and invert biology and husbandry that are sounding off, it seems. if handling is so bad then why have i never failed to breed a tarantula species? three attempts with two successes and a pending so far. never failed to produce a captive hatched clutch of tarantulas either. i have rediculous success with reproduction, molting, and feeding. these are the only genuince measures of success. all else is foolish anthropomorphizing and of ultimate detriment to the animals in questions.
WTF?! Handling has nothing to do with anythin you have mentioned here :confused: :? I have success also with feeding, moulting, reproduction and i don't handle mine so what exactly are you tryin to point out? your post makes no sense to me tbh.......

And who are you to tell me i have no handling experience and a poor grasp of invert biology and husbandry????
How i see it, the ones who have something to say about handling because they are concerned about the welfare of the spiders obviously appreciate the spiders for what they are, and show more education, respect and care for the animals.
*sigh*

because i am feeling generous i will try to type slow and use small words.

if free handling was *that* bad i wouldn't be as successful as i am with my bugs. since i am as successful (or more, likely) than you and free handle then it is not demonstrably bad for them and thus virtually all your arguments are emotional dribble.

technically *you* are the one who has posted your somwhat lackluster understanding of tara bio ;)

this comes into play when somebody has such a poor understanding of the animals in question that they make all kinds of bad assumptions and then go spouting off somwhat incoherently. no worries though, your posts evince attitudes that are beyond education so this is more for the benefit of others ;)
 
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