Halloween heros babies

[bistrobob85]

I dont encourage hybridizing species but i think that this experiment of yours is very interesting. Keep us posted on the development of the colors...

As for selling them, they're not mine but i just wouldnt let go of any of them in the hobby though, i believe it should remain a project to keep within a serious and controled range. I really dont think that hybridizing is meant for the recreationnal hobby.

phil.

 

[peterbourbon]

Hi,

i still don't get the point why some people talk about different "species" or "subspecies". Last taxonomic publication about exactly this "problem" is Attems' Scolopendromorpha 2. And still chilobase doesn't list "heros", "castaneiceps" or "arizonensis" as valid subspecies. (especially user "krabbelspinne" who owns Attems' publication and lives in Germany..so it's only a case of "reading before posting").

Actually there is only one "Scolopendra heros" with different variants / colorations. That makes "cross-breeding" obvious and a good experiment to start with. (Though i wouldn't use the term "cross breeding" when you mate just variants of the same species).

Keep up the good work & keep us informed.

Regards
Turgut

 

[Galapoheros]

Hi, the experiment was done out of curiosity to see if I could get more evidence of the color variants being the same species, just messing around with it. I received an email from a researcher a year or two ago saying that if I did get babies from breeding the two color variants, the "clincher"(even though there is little doubt anyway) would be that these babies would have to be able to have babies. I've seen some strange colored S. heros pedes that suggests to me that there are color variation breeding/transition zones. Here's one that Greg (justGreg) on this forum received that he said came from Texas. Unfortunately, he didn't know what part of Texas it came from. I'm guessing these will look a lot like the heros in Greg's thread at the bottom of the first post. I started out with 11 and have 9 left. The other two got out, I just didn't think they could reach the little hole in the top but they did. I fixed that prob. None have died. I guess they are about 1.5 inches now.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=126384&highlight=Justgreg

 

[krabbelspinne]

@ peterbourbon:

that`s why I am asking if this are just colour forms.


I imagine the problem of the genus brachypelma. You know, there are so many species right now (smithi, annitha, emilia, boehmei...) and no one knows if they are just developed by cross mating.

Even if Attems says that Sc. heros is one species with colour forms we should not forget that if the colour forms habitats have natural borders so that they can not cross mate in nature, the chance of revision is high.

But if we mix the available material right now, the describtion will be not easy and the same problem to brachypelma results....

Just my ideas.........

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Hi,

i still don't get the point why some people talk about different "species" or "subspecies". Last taxonomic publication about exactly this "problem" is Attems' Scolopendromorpha 2.

There have been a few publications with reference to Scolopendra heros subspecies that fall under ICZN rules since 1930.
Explain how Sandefer's book with the listed subspecies is outside ICZN rules (using specific ICZN rules as a reference rather than just saying you don't like it). It doesn't matter your opinion on the quality of the work. The book doesn't expressly say it's not a taxonomic work.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I started out with 11 and have 9 left. The other two got out, I just didn't think they could reach the little hole in the top but they did.

I find it interesting the number of young is so small. Whether a geographic color form expressed as a variety or subspecies a normal number of young ought to be produced. Do you have any evidence the initial number of eggs was small versus a number of bad ones? Often if you cross two species (at least in some insects) you get a reduced number of viable eggs.

 

[Galapoheros]

Only as a witness. When I first saw the eggs the day after I saw no eggs(she was out in the open the entire time), I tried to count them and knew there was around 12. I counted to 11 and assumed I missed one or two. What also crossed my mind when I saw the small number of eggs was the length of time it had been since she mated, which had been around 8 to 9 months. Is it possible that they might have a small number of eggs if sperm is running out or becoming non-viable? But then, they can have a normal amount of infertile eggs so that doesn't really make much sense off the top of my head. The small number of eggs immediately caught my attention too. The S. heros heros female I saw mate with an S. heros castaneiceps male hasn't produced eggs this year.

 

[krabbelspinne]

just to compare:

my Sc. heros var. castaneiceps had 71 pedelings which survived....

 

[peterbourbon]

There have been a few publications with reference to Scolopendra heros subspecies that fall under ICZN rules since 1930.

That's interesting - so i prefer we're getting more into detail: What exactly makes heros variants to subspecies? There must be concrete taxonomical differences that distinguish e.g. arizonensis from castaneiceps (besides color). I don't have arizonensis to compare to castaneiceps, but i assume you can tell me. If they are rather subspecies than variants, it's fine, cause i think it's helpful to talk about the same facts.

Regards
Turgut

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

What exactly makes heros variants to subspecies?

Your question is easy to answer (look through the subspecies definitions I listed a few posts back) but you should answer my question to you first. "Explain how...."

 

[Tarantula_man94]

Really good.
:clap:

 

[peterbourbon]

Hi,

i don't argue about the correct nomenclature, but only want to find out if this distinction is "only" based on the fact of territorial isolation - and if we can really talk about isolation at all. Where does isolation begin and where does it end? Finally it's important to debate on official nomenclature regarding centipedes, because it's going to get difficult if we find a "border-species" we don't have a name for.

What are you going to do if you find a crossed speciman in nature? Call it "Scolopendra heros heroneiceps"?

I don't prefer anything - and i really don't take care if i should write Scolopendra heros var. castaneiceps or scolopendra heros castaneiceps - i only want to use correct names.
You already named it: It's rather subspecies than variant - is it definitely a subspecies? What makes it exactly not to be variant? Territorial isolation? That's all? You know how easily pedes can vary in color - using this concept as a 100% reference is going to end in chaos.
And we don't compare Madagascar-morsitans to U.S.-morsitans.

But - i agree - it's actually valid and it's the language we should use when we talk about centipedes.
Well, there is nothing wrong or incorrect using ICZN - but that's not the fact i talk about.

Besides this discussion it's important for me to prefer things, because i find it important to have reliable high-quality scientific papers rather than just having people refering on nomenclatures - else we can lack good argumentation.

Again: I only want to discuss about difficulties of nomenclatures, especially regarding scolopendra heros. Besides i want to know if the nomenclatures "Scolopendra heros castaneiceps", "Scolopendra heros heros", "Scolopendra heros arizonensis" are 100% official and valid.

And now we can switch to the more important things in life.

Regards
Turgut

 

[krabbelspinne]

I agree to peterbourbon and maybe someone can post some ID pictures of heros heros, heros castaneiceps and heros arizonensis to compare so that we can discuss about taxonomical details like prefemoral spine, coxopleural proces, teeth...

If these don`t figure out enough differences to call them subspecies, so we can go on discussing about natural borders, which make them subspecies by isolation...

 

[Galapoheros]

This is kind of trivial but, I have 10 Xpedes again! I was taking a look at one and saw two of them in the same container! So one crawled out of the hole on top of it's container and crawled into a hole on top of the container next to it .......HA! I lucked out with that one. Glad they aren't older, they wouldn't have gotten along so well. Kind of interesting that are still pretty tolerant of each other at 3rd instar. Two were together for several days and I didn't notice.

 

[KyuZo]

Hi Galapoheros, i was wondering if you have any recent update on these hybrids? did any of them molt again? can you please post a picture if they did? thanks

 

[Galapoheros]

Hi, OK, most have molted again, two haven't. I'll post some pics later probably tomorrow. I can't get pics of them right now because they are long enough to bolt over the edge of the delis when I open the top, man they are fast! I thought I was going to lose one when it seemed to fly out. So I'm going to move them to taller delis. They are still green. In Sc. heros heros, the babies have greenish terminals but usually fade to white when adult where I have caught them. So I expect the terminals to fade to a nice looking blue-green color, have to wait and see. I'm happy to say that none have died .

 

[KyuZo]

thanks Galapoheros, I am looking forward to see how they're gonna all turn out. your work is inspirering. I am also working on a project right now. I am not working with centipedes though, because they are not as abundant to me as they are to you.

 

[Galapoheros]

Glad some people think it's interesting, not really "work" though, just interesting stuff to me so it's fun! Here are pics of a few after I moved them. They really haven't changed much, green body with more of an orange head than red, blue terminals, kinda cool.

 

[KyuZo]

you should name this morph after yourself .

 

[Warren Bautista]

LOL Subspinipes Heros Galapoheros sounds pretty catchy!