H incei communal questions?

[Venomgland]

I'm getting 10 normal and 3 golds this week. They are coming free with an order! I don't plan on combining the 2 different species. Is a 20 gallon long to big for the 10 right now? They are all 1" slings.

The 3 gold H incie. Do you think 3 is to small to keep communal or would it be better just to keep them separate? I'd probably put those 3 in a 10 gallon tank.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I don't plan on combining the 2 different species.

If I remember correctly then they aren't actually different species, just colour morphs, I think you can get both from the same egg sac.

 

[EulersK]

I don't plan on combining the 2 different species

They are not different species, they are color morphs. Chances are that they're from the same sac (i.e. they're siblings).

Is a 20 gallon long to big for the 10 right now?

That would be absolutely massive for a communal setup... if you had one. More on that later.

Do you think 3 is to small to keep communal or would it be better just to keep them separate?

There is no minimum size for a communal.


Okay, here is the explanation. If you keep these in a communal, it will almost certainly fail. The way to make a successful communal is to allow a sac to hatch with a mama tarantula. If you simply put siblings together after being separated from their mother, then you'll likely end up with a single tarantula after some time. It is too late to make a communal. Do yourself a favor and keep them separate.

Do you really want a communal? Then get yourself a female (which you almost certainly have) and breed her. Leave her with the sac. Then you'll have your communal. Until then, it's your best bet to keep them isolated.

 

[EulersK]

Also, side note. It's not "H. incei". It's Neoholothele incei, or N. incei. Their genus changed quite some time ago.

 

[Trenor]

If I remember correctly then they aren't actually different species, just colour morphs, I think you can get both from the same egg sac.

That is correct. They are the only species (I am aware of) that can have two different color traits from the same sack. It's likely both gold and olive came out of the same sack if they are from the same seller. Unless you pair two golds or two olives (one with both markers olive) you'll end up with a mix of olives and golds.

There are a number of posts on here that give really great breakdowns on the whole thing.

I've only heard of one of these setups working and it was a mother that was allowed to keep her sack and raise the young. Every other communal I've heard of ended in some if not all but one getting eaten by the others or in the case of one being left: The Highlander. I'd do some thread searches to make sure you understand the risks (which are high) and get an idea of what to expect. Good luck.

 

[Venomgland]

Alright I am going to have to rethink this.

 

[Venomgland]

I've talked to both the seller and some well respected T keepers about my situation and both agreed that I would be fine keeping these communal, but I have decided against it. Until I get a inhouse communal going of Dubai roaches with unlimited food at my hands. I'm not going to try and keep anything communal. I don't want to loose anything to cannibalism.

Like someone said I will most likely have a few females and males and best to breed them and just keep them together. I'm going to do try that and by then I should have my Dubai colony well established.

I appreciate everyones advice and tips. Thanks

 

[Sarkhan42]

They are not different species, they are color morphs. Chances are that they're from the same sac (i.e. they're siblings).



That would be absolutely massive for a communal setup... if you had one. More on that later.



There is no minimum size for a communal.


Okay, here is the explanation. If you keep these in a communal, it will almost certainly fail. The way to make a successful communal is to allow a sac to hatch with a mama tarantula. If you simply put siblings together after being separated from their mother, then you'll likely end up with a single tarantula after some time. It is too late to make a communal. Do yourself a favor and keep them separate.

Do you really want a communal? Then get yourself a female (which you almost certainly have) and breed her. Leave her with the sac. Then you'll have your communal. Until then, it's your best bet to keep them isolated.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but out of curiosity do you know if this communal rule is the case with M. balfouri as well? Getting back to expanding and they're high on my list.

 

[EulersK]

Until I get a inhouse communal going of Dubai roaches with unlimited food at my hands.

It's not thought to be an issue of food supply. In fact, proprietors of communal setups often bring up that too much abundance of space and food are a downfall. I can tell you that my N. incei communal didn't fail because of a lack of food. It failed because they're cannibals. Communals fail because tarantulas are not communal animals.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but out of curiosity do you know if this communal rule is the case with M. balfouri as well?

No, not quite. M. balfouri do wonderfully in communal setups, even after they've been separated from mama T. However, I've made an observation from my and other's experiences. If they are taken from a communal setup and then housed together, they do just fine. But if they were separate to begin with (even if they're siblings), then all bets are off. But honestly, for spiders that valuable, I keep them separate. My communal of four was running perfectly fine and yet I decided to split them up. Just not worth the risk in my eyes.

Whether or not M. balfouri live in communal settings in the wild has yet to be researched. But they do great in a communal setup in captivity... they're about the only species that does.

 

[viper69]

I don't mean to derail the thread, but out of curiosity do you know if this communal rule is the case with M. balfouri as well? Getting back to expanding and they're high on my list.

I haven't heard or seen any documented proof in the wild of communal for balfouri.

 

[Sarkhan42]

I haven't heard or seen any documented proof in the wild of communal for balfouri.

So I've heard, its fascinating to see their success communally in captivity however. I hope some sort of research is done into their habits in the wild, as it seems insofar things have been pretty limited. One of my goals for a senior capstone is to perhaps look into recognition of others and dispersal after early instars, which might shed some light on if there is any kind of motivating factor for staying aggregated. I have a suspicion the communals we see in captivity are just product of us limiting their ability to disperse after they reach a certain stage. The parental care portion seems to be relatively well supported by firsthand accounts of poor health in slings taken from the mother, among others, but it would also be nice to get some scientific studies performed when it comes to that as well.

 

[boina]

I haven't heard or seen any documented proof in the wild of communal for balfouri.

No, I haven't either. Not many people have documented M. balfouri behaviour in the wild.

The way they behave in captivity, however, makes me think they definitely have the capacity for some very basic social interaction, like food sharing. They are also exceedingly tolerant of each other. If they don't do that in the wild then how has this trait developed and is so consistent in this species? I theorize that they will live comunally in the wild, at least under certain circumstances and take their behaviour in captivity as evidence. I am aware that this is not proof, but it's still evidence.

 

[viper69]

There's a published paper out there that looked at the distribution of slings when they leave birthplace. If I recall they don't travel too far from their birthplace. May partially explain why males travel far to ensure genetic diversity in the species.

So I've heard, its fascinating to see their success communally in captivity however. I hope some sort of research is done into their habits in the wild, as it seems insofar things have been pretty limited. One of my goals for a senior capstone is to perhaps look into recognition of others and dispersal after early instars, which might shed some light on if there is any kind of motivating factor for staying aggregated. I have a suspicion the communals we see in captivity are just product of us limiting their ability to disperse after they reach a certain stage. The parental care portion seems to be relatively well supported by firsthand accounts of poor health in slings taken from the mother, among others, but it would also be nice to get some scientific studies performed when it comes to that as well.

 

[viper69]

No, I haven't either. Not many people have documented M. balfouri behaviour in the wild.

The way they behave in captivity, however, makes me think they definitely have the capacity for some very basic social interaction, like food sharing. They are also exceedingly tolerant of each other. If they don't do that in the wild then how has this trait developed and is so consistent in this species? I theorize that they will live comunally in the wild, at least under certain circumstances and take their behaviour in captivity as evidence. I am aware that this is not proof, but it's still evidence.

Until I read about their lifestyle in the wild, they are not communal. Captivity induces all sorts of abnormal behaviors.

 

[cold blood]

Alright I am going to have to rethink this.

Good decision.

 

[LordAnon]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but does this apply to sacmates that where born together, housed together, but then shipped separately and rehoused together? A breeder in another thread is selling a "communal bundle" of slings which I assumed all lived together.