Gooty Price-Fair?

[ccamaleon3000]

sorry but i dont agreed whit no one of you if you think supply and demand its gonna catch up. remember from 10 p metallicas 6 are good breeders (i experience this my self) plus no one count pokies are about to be on the cites list and no one are interest on get the permit why do you think mexican tarantulas are not been exported from Europe. cites permits are not cheap plus you need a building to do that. now the ones gonna bring those gonna rise the prices to $300 dollars a sling and American breeders are not breeding alot p. metallica's so better start a breeding projects now before its to late. and for the new people out there ask old breeders, im talking people been in the businesses since the 80's and you will see what im talking about why do you think prices from p. metallicas when up from $80 to $120? mark my words i all ready got my stock of big females and 20+ babes

 

[lumpbump]

I just finished reading this post and I have to say that I love my now 50 tarantulas but they are not as bad as people make them out to be. Could be that I also have cobras, vipers, and death adders. Get what you are interested in. Simple 150$ from a lps is fair.

 

[Lopez]

Psalmopeous are a good stepping stone to poecs and the route im headed on. I have read more than one post from irmina owners describing their spider as "devil spawn"...haha. Psalmos are extremely fast, can be quite defensive, and tend to be great eaters. Cambridgei gets over 7". But they come without the medically significant venom that could make a mistake a trip to the ER a pokie could land you in, instead of just learning a painful lesson. There's some bigger avics, to, like brushen yada yada (I struggle to spell that one-tee hee), or urticans that are bigger, more defensive avics, too.

Painful, yes. Medically significant is pushing it I think.

 

[cold blood]

look closer, I said psalmopeous was without....I said painful, though.

...unless you are saying the pokies are not medically significant...which they are.

 

[Lopez]

look closer, I said psalmopeous was without....I said painful, though.

...unless you are saying the pokies are not medically significant...which they are.

I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?

 

[viper69]

I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?

I don't think ONE person decided it haha, it's more a general consensus to my knowledge. I see that terms used w/that genus ALL OVER. There are a couple medical articles reporting on the effects of the Poki genus on humans because the venoms are so powerful.

 

[Poec54]

I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?

Having read bite reports, I think we in the T community can call bites from certain species as being 'medically significant' when people go to ER's in the middle of the night and have symptoms for days or months. Basically if it's a lot more intense than the average 'bee sting' bite. While this may not qualify as 'medically significant' in other animal hobbies, where 'life threatening' may be a common term, it makes sense for us.

 

[cold blood]

When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER. If children, the enfeebled or pets can be killed by a bite.

Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom. The info is out there. There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. regalis that turned out to threaten his life. I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit. A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.

 

[Lopez]

I do understand, I just really think it sends out the wrong mssg to the uninformed public about the animals we keep. It's a tricky balance, between being realistic whilst still "discouraging" new keepers from keeping those species that carry a stronger venom and higher chance of a bite.

---------- Post added 03-28-2014 at 09:38 PM ----------

When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER.

Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom. The info is out there. There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. rgalis that nearly killed him. I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit. A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.

"Out there". There's lots of stuff "out there", just search the British media for information about False Widow bites. What body systems do Poecilotheria bites affect? I'm looking for factual medical information, rather than anecdotal evidence which is shaky at best.

 

[viper69]

Lopez search the forum a link to one very recent article would answer your last question a bit.

If you weren't to use medically significant, what 1-3 word phrase would you use to set apart the Poki genus, and similarly powerful T species, from all the others regarding their venom?

 

[Lopez]

Lopez search the forum a link to one very recent article would answer your last question a bit.

If you weren't to use medically significant, what 1-3 word phrase would you use to set apart the Poki genus, and similarly powerful T species, from all the others regarding their venom?

"Stronger"? Why do you need a specific term for it anyway? Why does there need to be a line in the sand when you get to a certain point?

I can't search the forum for the article you refer to at the moment because I'm on a mobile device that doesn't support the drop down search box on vbb.

---------- Post added 03-29-2014 at 07:12 AM ----------

When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER. If children, the enfeebled or pets can be killed by a bite.

Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom. The info is out there. There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. regalis that turned out to threaten his life. I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit. A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.

I've read Dr Valvool's comments, but I don't see that they add any credit to your claims? His initial comments about when to go to ER aren't specifically around tarantula bites, but any bite from something that results in the symptoms he's describing. The majority of his comments are around the specific lack of records around tarantula venom in a harmful capacity, and the fact that almost everything is around it's potential scientific uses.

You mention children and the enfeebled (?) dying from a bite, but again, no children or feeble people have ever died from a tarantula bite. Pets, being non human by their very nature, are not relevant to discussions around the effect of venom in humans.

 

[Smokehound714]

I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?

Pokies are definitely medically significant T's. P. regalis is well known for having potent venom. They cause symptoms similar to latrotoxin, the neurotoxin in widow venom- causing intense excruciating pain, severe fever, shock, and painful muscle cramps. Unlike widow venom, wherein the effects generally subside in less than a day, some people continue to feel the cramps, swelling, and pain from a pokie bite for a week.

 

[viper69]

"Stronger"? Why do you need a specific term for it anyway? Why does there need to be a line in the sand when you get to a certain point?

I can't search the forum for the article you refer to at the moment because I'm on a mobile device that doesn't support the drop down search box on vbb.

When you are on a computer search for it then

Well Lopez you may not care if the animal you are buying has highly toxic venom or not. Most people like to know what they are getting.

With your rationale there is no need to distinguish between non-venomous, semi-venomous and venomous snakes then.

After all the bites from a cobra or boomslang are just "stronger" than a hognose or garter snake. All 4 snakes are venomous.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

I get where Lopez is coming from - labeling Poecis as "hots" puts them in the same frame as Phoneutria, Latrodectus and other actual hot invert species in the minds of nonhobbyists. That can make. For bad publicity for an already fringe hobby. On the other hand, we have to make sure new keepers understand some tarantulas are more prone to bite and those bites have a bit more power than an Avicularia.

 

[BobGrill]

I'm confused. Isn't pointing out the venom potency of an animal available in the pet trade a good thing? That way people who are new to the hobby or would rather avoid species with strong venom will know which ones to stay away from? I'm pretty sure there is plenty of evidence that proves that pokies have stronger venom than most tarantulas, so I'm not sure why you're even questioning that...

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lopez]

I get where Lopez is coming from - labeling Poecis as "hots" puts them in the same frame as Phoneutria, Latrodectus and other actual hot invert species in the minds of nonhobbyists. That can make. For bad publicity for an already fringe hobby. On the other hand, we have to make sure new keepers understand some tarantulas are more prone to bite and those bites have a bit more power than an Avicularia.

Exactly my point.

 

[viper69]

Exactly my point.

So your point is not to make a distinction at all then, is that the case?

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

So your point is not to make a distinction at all then, is that the case?

Unless I am wrong, that's *not* his point. His point is noting there are species with a bit more power to their bite to inexperienced keepers while not putting them in the same vein as actual potentially lethal species for the public at large. I think he means we need to be careful calling them hot in a way that someone not involved in the hobby would consider there is no distinction. Do we want nonhobbyists or, worse, PETA and politicians thinking P muticus is on the same level of toxicity as P nigreventer since both species are tend to be called "hot" by hobbyists? One's potentially lethal and the other is gonna make you have a bad day at worst.

 

[viper69]

Unless I am wrong, that's *not* his point. His point is noting there are species with a bit more power to their bite to inexperienced keepers while not putting them in the same vein as actual potentially lethal species for the public at large. I think he means we need to be careful calling them hot in a way that someone not involved in the hobby would consider there is no distinction. Do we want nonhobbyists or, worse, PETA and politicians thinking P muticus is on the same level of toxicity as P nigreventer since both species are tend to be called "hot" by hobbyists? One's potentially lethal and the other is gonna make you have a bad day at worst.

I'm not sure, hence my question to him. I suspect you are correct. He balked at using "medically significant" which is not the same as "lethal" IMO. Someone not familiar would likely ask for clarification on what medically significant means, and the seller should clarify regardless of being asked or not.

The classification needs to be relevant. A responsible person shouldn't classify a rattlesnake's bite simply as "stronger" than a garter snake's bite, both of which are venomous animals.

Either you classify them (humans love to classify) so people can make informed decisions, or you don't. And let the chips fall where they may when Johnny holds his Poki and is rushed off to the ER because his parents didn't do the research and were under the impression it was "just" a tarantula, like any old Rose Hair.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Your comparison about garters and rattlers seems to be missing the point still. That's not the issue - the issue is saying both the garter and rattler are "hot". One is a potential death sentence and the other is maybe a bit of swelling. There's a reason why overall rear fanged snakes (outside exceptions like the boomslang) aren't called hot - because their effects are both mild and largely do not require medical attention. And that's the case with most tarantulas. And even the bites from OWs are largely untreatable outside of treating symtpms. Compare this to Phoneutria, Latrodectus, Atrox or, for herps, Naja. These bites are life threatening and, as such, have had specific treatments created to save lives. I think we as a hobby need internally to educate the inexperienced as to the potential potency of OWs - all while making sure to differentiate even the most potent T's from the same class as life threatening inverts.