Golden knee mating with a rosea

[losct2381]

Has any one overheard of a golden knee mating and having slings with a rosea. The reason I asked is because I seen a English man selling what look like a golden knee but a little darker in color. Claiming it to be a cross breed. I just wanted to know if that was possible. Oh by the way I didn't buy it I only buy from one source was just looking around

 

[Salt]

It's possible.

 

[losct2381]

Wow is their high defect percent or no

 

[EndlessForms]

so if they can interbreed, are they, technically, the same species? or has the definition changed?

 

[Salt]

Well, they're hybrids. You wouldn't say a Collie cross GSD is a collie any more than you would a Golden Knee cross Rosea.

It's a mongrel species, to put it bluntly. There will probably be a lot of defects though, so I don't recommend purchasing it (unless you enjoy watching your spiders have strange diseases, behavioural or mobility problems).

 

[Mez]

Just out of interest, what seller was it?
Maybe one i dont know about, always looking for new online sources!

 

[losct2381]

It was at a shown ny

 

[Terry D]

Same genus -would be a good possibility, at least for that reason

Wow is their high defect percent or no

Conversely, there could also be hybrid vigor, then several years down the rd hobbyists don't know what the <edit> they have anymore.

It's already enough in this hobby (as well with other exotic pets) that we don't frequently have locality data on the "definite" spp that we do keep. Why further muddle the situation?

DO NOT HYBRIDIZE!

Terry

 

[Big Red TJ]

hybrids should be avoided...........

 

[Suidakkra]

hybrids should be avoided...........

+1

This is the reason many arachnologist refuse to reorder and reidentify tarantula genus'.

Also many of them believe that it has negative implications such as : shorter life spans, more prone to diseases, etc. Also it is believed it also affects the temperment of the hybrid, but most importantly proper indentification of the specimen become more difficult.

 

[gmrpnk21]

I am starting to understand why hybrids are such a bad thing. Did you get a picture of the tarantula?

 

[Salt]

Plural for genus is genera. But yes, that's how it is. It's unavoidable though - even in the wild spiders cross breed sometimes. You can never be sure.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

You guys have to aknowledge that there are some hybridizations that produce perfectly healthy offspring. Corn snakeXmilk snake, for example. Hybridization does not automatically equal unhealthy babies. Now I don't know what the percentage of defects is for hybrids in tarantulas, but unless someone can give me some proof to back their claims of defects then they shouldn't use that as a reason to advise against hybridization.

I can, however, see a much more predicatble problem of hybrids being sold as pure breds, and "muddying" up the gene pool. Which is why proper labeling of offspring is very very important.

All in all, I am for hybridization if the offspring are continually bred healthy and they are labeled correctly.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

You guys have to aknowledge that there are some hybridizations that produce perfectly healthy offspring. Corn snakeXmilk snake, for example. Hybridization does not automatically equal unhealthy babies. Now I don't know what the percentage of defects is for hybrids in tarantulas, but unless someone can give me some proof to back their claims of defects then they shouldn't use that as a reason to advise against hybridization.

I can, however, see a much more predicatble problem of hybrids being sold as pure breds, and "muddying" up the gene pool. Which is why proper labeling of offspring is very very important.

All in all, I am for hybridization if the offspring are continually bred healthy and they are labeled correctly.

That right there is reason enough not to hybridize.

When someone buys "A" spider, they want "A" spider, not "AxB" sold to them as "A".

Now if you want to read about hybrids, just search. There are a million threads that are 15 pages long with arguing back and forth.

 

[Falk]

Same genus -would be a good possibility, at least for that reason



Conversely, there could also be hybrid vigor, then several years down the rd hobbyists don't know what the @3!k they have anymore.

It's already enough in this hobby (as well with other exotic pets) that we don't frequently have locality data on the "definite" spp that we do keep. Why further muddle the situation?

DO NOT HYBRIDIZE!

Terry

They are diffirent complexes within their genus so i really dont belive it is true that there where a succesfull breeding between G. pulchripes and G. rosea

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 AM ----------

You guys have to aknowledge that there are some hybridizations that produce perfectly healthy offspring. Corn snakeXmilk snake, for example. Hybridization does not automatically equal unhealthy babies. Now I don't know what the percentage of defects is for hybrids in tarantulas, but unless someone can give me some proof to back their claims of defects then they shouldn't use that as a reason to advise against hybridization.

I can, however, see a much more predicatble problem of hybrids being sold as pure breds, and "muddying" up the gene pool. Which is why proper labeling of offspring is very very important.

All in all, I am for hybridization if the offspring are continually bred healthy and they are labeled correctly.

You compare snakes to arachnids?

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

Plural for genus is genera. But yes, that's how it is. It's unavoidable though - even in the wild spiders cross breed sometimes. You can never be sure.

Yes they can mate in the wild but in most cases there will not be any fertile eggs. But it is very rare that they mate in the wild since most of species are localized into their own area.

 

[losct2381]

Look I didn't start the read to cause a problem. I just had a question on something I saw at a show and it didn't look right to be honest I think the guy just wanted 80 bucks for his golden knees and nit ur average 30 to 40 so he made something up my breeder was their and she was killing the competition. Just because her product is that good this guys t's looked all beat up. I just wanted to see what everyone else thought that's all. I didn't want to start world war three

 

[Londoner]

Actually, it's been pretty civil up to now for a thread about hybrids. I personally come down on the side of the fence that says hybridization is a bad thing within the hobby.

 

[fatich]

http://www.facebook.com/SN2itch?ref=ts

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Well I do have more to say on the subject, but out of respect for the wishes of others I will stop posting in this thread, lol. I don't want a flame war any more than everyone else.

However, if anyone wishes to debate this via PM then I am all ears.

 

[skinheaddave]

Actually, it's been pretty civil up to now for a thread about hybrids.

Amen. In fact, the only people who seemed to get out of hand were those commmenting not on hybridization at all, but rather just the way hybrid posts have gone here in the past.

It is a subject about which many seem passionate but few seem knowledgable. Amidst the usual mess there are often very informed and intelligent posts which seem to go unnoticed and unappreciated. This thread has yet to decend into absolute chaos, so after a bit of trimming I am going to let it stand for now. Feel free to have intelligent and meaningful discussions surrounding whatever topics you chose. Of course if it goes downhill then we will take appropriate action. Please try to avoid rhetoric and stick to reasonable debate.

-=[Moderator comments end here. The rest is just me participating as an individual]=-

I wish in these threads that people would stop making comparisons to dogs. Dogs are all a single, domesticated species. If you want to do something with tarantulas that truly parallels dogs then go to a naturally occuring population and pick the largest individuals. Selectively breed those individuals over successive generations until they are all larger than the natural population. You can debate whether or not this is a responsible course of action -- but it will be a debate only tangentially related to the hybrid one.

Likewise, comparisons to something like snakes is a fairly legitimate one. If anything, you are LESS likely to run into issues regarding defects etc. in Ts than you are in most vertebrates. Some of the species we keep were all established from a very small founding population of individuals. Already we have a captive population that is extremely inbred and likely genetically disperate from the wild population due to having traveled through a genetic bottleneck (look up the "founder effect" for a discussion of this). Add to this all of the issues with identification, lack of collection locales etc. and the view that we, as hobbyists, are somehow keeping species groups that parallel the wild are, in many but not all cases, naive.

So do I personally support hybridization? In most cases, absolutely not. I have absolutely no problem if people want to try x-breeding, document the result and then either euthenize the progeny or raise them to maturity and see if F2 offspring can be produced. This can all be published in hobby journals (or proper scientific journals if done properly and if the founding animals are of known origin etc.) and can expand our knowledge of these critters we keep.

That being said, I have yet to see this work out. Some people say they will keep them to themselves or ensure they are properly labeled etc. .. but then they sell some or give some to a friend or whatnot. They lose control of the young and they quickly end up unlabeled on the show table of a guy who mostly breeds leopard geckos but got them in a trade. It reminds me a bit of the people who can't keep secrets because they feel that if they just swear to secrecy the people THEY tell it somehow isn't going to spread.

It is a relatively thin slice of the hobby which can not only show the discipline to control the results of such experiements but also conduct them in a way which becomes meaningful for the hobby. Thus, as a rule I would say DO NOT HYBRIDIZE. Those to whom I would graciously grant an exception to my rule don't need me or anyone else to grant such an exception since they will clearly understand exactly what they are doing.

Cheers,
Dave