G rosea and CITES

[SkorpNtrants]

Hey,

I was reading a thread where it had mentioned something about G. roseas and CITES, although due to already having one I know they cannot take it away from me, and having 30 coming to me, I am safe.

but can anyone fill me into whats going on with G. roseas and CITES?
and even what CITES is exactly?

 

[TheDarkFinder]

CITES is an abortion of an idea that sounds very good on paper. Here is what it is. It is an agreement to limit the capture and importing of endangered species into and out of the countries around the world. The idea behind this is to make it hard for people to get a hold of exotic animals. It was made to control the importing of these species. It was written as a way to control the importing of animals from tarantulas to monkeys.

Animal rights people thought it was so cool because over collecting, by hobbiest, was destroying the native populations of many species, ie B. smithi. So they thought that if you make it illegal to export them or import them, you could save them. Unfortunately what it has done is not that. Millions of tarantulas are killed every year by local people, wanting to get rid of the a pest. So we have watch B. smithi go from threatened to endangered to unlikely to survive.

Another great example of the forward thinking of this plan is with the chinchilla. Thousands where hunted, killed, and make into coats. They where placed on the endangered species list and banned by cities. Fast forward a twenty years, and there are more chinchillas in portland oregon then there is in the wild. Why, not over hunting. But climate change. You see, once they where made illegal to hunt hunting stop.

About 30,000 chinchillas remained in the wild. They live in the high andies where they survive between the snow level and the conifer forest. Global warming has warmed the mountain ranges up, and the snow level is about 1,000 feet higher then where the chins live. They can not remain cool enough to survive, but can not move up the hill because because the food they eat is not spreading. Now the number of chinchillas in the wild is around 40- 75. With no hope for survival.

But instead of letting people save the animals from death, CITES, will not let us rescue the remaining chins, and at least have the genetics they contain. The chins, like many species, got a death sentence with cities, not a lease on life. And since cities is so wrapped up with people making a buck off it, it will never change.

As for the other part. It really depends. G. rosia is not only from a small area but from large area that includes 4-5 counties. And no one really cares about them. WC is frowned on in the US now and they are very easy to breed so I would guess not.

The second issue, is they live in places that are not threaten by humans. and so habit destruction, the number one killer of any species does not happen. With no habitat destruction and captive breeding it would not matter much if it did. There would be no increase in price.

 

[elliot]

CITES is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species.

Here is a link that tells what CITES is.
Here is a link that details how CITES works.

It is an organization that controls how certain species of animals are traded on the internation market. Contrary to what TheDarkFinder wrote, CITES is not designed to "make it hard for people to get a hold of exotic animals". It is simply to prevent the demands of private collectors or business interests from damagaging wild populations.

B. smithi is the classic example. In the 70s and 80s, there were so many wild caught B. smithi being exported from Mexico to fuel the demands of the pet trade that the animal became threatened. CITES was the only thing preventing every last B smithi in the wild from being captured and exported to American hobbiests.

G. rosea is now in a similar situation as B smithi because there are so many Wild Caught specimens being exported from their native Chile. It can be assumed (and we hope) that CITES will eventually protect G rosea too.

although due to already having one I know they cannot take it away from me, and having 30 coming to me, I am safe.

CITES has nothing to do with animals already in collections, or animals that are captive bred. If CITES began protecting G rosea, all it would mean is that animals in the trade will have to be captive bred, which they all should be anyway.

 

[Snipes]

How long do you think it will take for G. rosea to get on CITES, (and how long til the slings are 20$ each ). And when that happens, which tarantula is the next G. rosea?

 

[elliot]

How long do you think it will take for G. rosea to get on CITES, (and how long til the slings are 20$ each ). And when that happens, which tarantula is the next G. rosea?

I don't know anything about who is able to propose ammendments at the conferences. (Would it have to come from Chile?) There's going to be another conference in June of this year, but I can't find any information on what the proposals will be for this conference, maybe no on knows at this time. I hope they get G. rosea in there soon, though.

As for what's next, I do know that in 2000 Peocilotheria spp. were proposed and rejected for inclusion in Appendix II. Link to proposal. Still, it makes sense that those would be next, there's always talk about it.

 

[elliot]

BTW, is that a pink Christina Aguillera Monster I see?

 

[M.F.Bagaturov]

Hello Elliot!
Who has told You this?

B. smithi being exported from Mexico to fuel the demands of the pet trade that the animal became threatened. CITES was the only thing preventing every last B smithi in the wild from being captured and exported to American hobbiests.

It has nothing in common with the trueth and the real situation were that days. And only thanks to hobby this species is can't be possess as endangered in general. In fact there were another reasons -mainly ploughing-up of the fields and illimination of the spiders by local peasants (they fired the fields to kill every animal they consider harmful)...
And more of this - CITES doe not cover the regulation of animals "from being captured" - only from trading. "From being captured" - is the aim of the local legislation of protection of the local wildlife.

This is why many species became extinct in the wild simple being eaten by locals, deforestation etc. The reason of collecting - isn't the aim that harm for animals - and simply is a PR and one obviouse reason to tell why, instead of analizing the real reasons...

For example, many species like Haplopelma spp in Thai and Cambodgia were cooked in amounts of much more than they're collected for trade...
And look the Madagascar radiated tortoise - it is strictly prohibited by trading considering endangered but locals eats it every day...
So, I agree that TheDarkFinder is mostly right indeed.
As i always told - it is not to be wise to prohibit something totally, but it is wise to manage to establishing valid actual regulation how this rare or endangered species should be supported to not extinct, and by the "home programms" included.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Yes, DarkFinder is right. These total bans will be the end of alot of uncollected species.

Since CITES only protects the exportation and not the species.

-Sean

 

[FryLock]

CITES has nothing to do with animals already in collections, or animals that are captive bred.

For Appendix II animals (such as Brachys) this is true until they have to be moved crossboarder but Appendix I species do need there paper work (pink slip) and here in the EU and are normally also micro chipped with there details (at least here in the UK).

 

[TheDarkFinder]

It is an organization that controls how certain species of animals are traded on the internation market. Contrary to what TheDarkFinder wrote, CITES is not designed to "make it hard for people to get a hold of exotic animals". It is simply to prevent the demands of private collectors or business interests from damagaging wild populations.

Don't you love to take things out of context. Reread what I wrote.
I hate quoting myself.

Here is what it is. It is an agreement to limit the capture and importing of endangered species into and out of the countries around the world. The idea behind this is to make it hard for people to get a hold of exotic animals.

You see the problem. Trying to confuse the issue by taking me out of context is low.



But it is easy to prove my point.

Atricle II section 2 paragraph A and B.

(a) all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival; and
(b) other species which must be subject to regulation in order that trade in specimens of certain species referred to in sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph may be brought under effective control.

Now read it slowly. Does it not say "all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation". Is this not conjecture? Does it not say although not necessarily threatened?

This is like me saying that we need to save the Perca flavescen because it may be over fishing could effect there numbers. Not that it has effected there numbers but it may. Or me saying that you can not kill the stray dog, because we think if you kill enough of them, you could kill them all. I mean they are not threatened now, but if we are allowed to kill them then they might be.

Do youi want me to bring up quotes from the director of cities. I can.


So do not sugar coat it, CITES does not protect anything from extinction, it protects against exploitation, It is a way for people, how really could care less about animals, to control what is traded and shipped. They want to tell us what we can and can not have.
Quoting myself again.

[1]Tthe idea behind this is to make it hard for people to get a hold of exotic animals.[/I]

Do not miss read me here. I think we need to limit the import and export of animals like cheetahs, tigers, monkeys, endangered tarantulas, but we also need to make it possible to save them too. We need a system where we see the last of the chinchillas dying and make a effort to save the genes they contain before they become extinct. We need a system where professional breeders can go into the amazon and remove unknown tarantula species, and breed them. And yes this does happen, until some idiot screws it up.

I will end here I will guarantee that there are more pokies in captivity then there has ever been in the wild. I will guarantee that there is more Brachys, more halpos, and more endangered tarantulas in basements, bedrooms, and closets then there has ever been in the wild, even before they where endangered. I well also guarantee this, dozens of species if you hundreds will quietly go extinct under cities control.

That is why we need to buy from breeders that care and want to keep tarantulas around and alive. there have been a few, yes even dealers that have sold here, that have broken cities and have been punished. This is good.But we need to change the law to save the species.

 

[elliot]

Relax, DarkFinder, I'm not trying to misquote you.

I will end here I will guarantee that there are more pokies in captivity then there has ever been in the wild. I will guarantee that there is more Brachys, more halpos, and more endangered tarantulas in basements, bedrooms, and closets then there has ever been in the wild, even before they where endangered.

All the more reason why there should be no more specimens taken from the wild for use by private hobbiests, at all. Hence, they should all be on CITES. Same with your chinchillas. I can go to the local pet store and get a chinchilla. There is no reason to pluck the last remaining chinchillas from the wild in some backwards attempt to "save" them.

I never tried to say that CITES is the final answer for preventing all the endanged species of the world from becoming extinct. It's just nice to know that (potentially) endangered species will not be taken from the wild for use in private collections, etc.

Does it not say "all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation". Is this not conjecture?

Right you are. Are you suggesting that it's a better idea to WAIT until native populations become depleted and only THEN try to do something about it?? That sort if thinking is why so many animals are endangered in the first place!!

 

[TheDarkFinder]

sigh quoting myself again.

Do not miss read me here. I think we need to limit the import and export of animals like cheetahs, tigers, monkeys, endangered tarantulas, but we also need to make it possible to save them too. We need a system where we see the last of the chinchillas dying and make a effort to save the genes they contain before they become extinct. We need a system where professional breeders can go into the amazon and remove unknown tarantula species, and breed them. And yes this does happen, until some idiot screws it up.

At no point did I not offer the idea that we should not protect the species that can be protected. But most if not all of the species on cites are not being protected, they are endangered by habitat lost, not exporting. We should by no means import them into private collections, but we need to import them. We can not just place a blanket over them. If professional arachnologist, is that even a word, Von Volker, or professional breeders, ie goterps, M.F.Bagaturov, or arachnoangel, sorry about the spelling of your names, wanted to go to and collect enough to have a breeding population, then we should allow it. They could sign papers and have government controls over what they collect and where.

But it is ton better then just setting back and doing nothing.

 

[Brian S]

Darkfinder, I must agree with you. Finally there is some common ground for us LOL

 

[SkorpNtrants]

Would you consider it any importance to breed them, or is the majority of them around all CB, anyway?

 

[Brian S]

Most are WC. If you have a male and female then go for it. Be good practice for if you ever decide to breed other species.

 

[M.F.Bagaturov]

As talking back the Grammostola rosea I tell You that any breeding just recently started arounf the hobby, first about 2-2.5 years or so...
But for last 2 years several decent breedings are made (not more than 10 as I've "recorded").
But, anyway, I believe that captive breeding of ANY species is a must been! Only breeding can justify the human's activity of got out wild animals from the nature.

Note. Regarding the info I posted here by "breeding" I NO mean the more common case - of cocoon produced by gravid WC females.

 

[Stylopidae]

And when that happens, which tarantula is the next G. rosea?

Aphonopelma seemani

 

[M.F.Bagaturov]

Hello!
You're not rigth Cheshire...
Aph. seemanni has very wide range including the countries from which export very limited (like Costa-Rica) or is absent at all, as opposite the G. rosea - it's areal has not so big...

 

[titus]

sigh quoting myself again.



At no point did I not offer the idea that we should not protect the species that can be protected. But most if not all of the species on cites are not being protected, they are endangered by habitat lost, not exporting. We should by no means import them into private collections, but we need to import them. We can not just place a blanket over them. If professional arachnologist, is that even a word, Von Volker, or professional breeders, ie goterps, M.F.Bagaturov, or arachnoangel, sorry about the spelling of your names, wanted to go to and collect enough to have a breeding population, then we should allow it. They could sign papers and have government controls over what they collect and where.

But it is ton better then just setting back and doing nothing.

I agree with most of this statment, Cites does not protect the species, envioment, or from people at all, it only protects the spcies from over collection for export. This has worked well for many other animals when breeding ranches have been set up in there area. The ranches are allowed a number of wild caught females based off this number. Cites picks a number of offspring allowed for export. This both protects the species from over collection and brings commerce to the region. This would not stop a person from obtaning WC to breed though would limit the numbers avalible. Nor does Cites affect undiscribed species that would not fall under cites apendx II or I.
Very little change in price or avaliblity should be seen with G Rosea beening added to Cites as it would fall in Apendx II and would only require papers to travel over international lines. As long a the species thives and breeding projects are established then little to no change should be seen.

 

[SkorpNtrants]

I'll have to find more information when the time comes, but I do have 61 G roseas slings(give or take, due to one sac not hatching yet.) coming to me next month.

so I should have quite a few males and females.

Yes I realise that the price of them will not go up at all.

But atleast we know that there will be a good amount of captive breeding.