Forbidding Poecilotheria as pets?

[Zoltan]

Molur and Siliwal (2004) note the prevalence within the U.S. of the term “tarantula” to describe Poecilotheria species. Collectors and traders in the U.S. ofter refer to Poecilotheria spiders as “tarantulas.” While technically inaccurate, Petitioners use this term because the aim of this petition is to reduce the threat of commercial exploitation, particularly by U.S. entities or individuals, to these species.

Um.... so are they saying Poecilotheria aren't tarantulas? :? These people are dumb.

That's interesting, I wonder what exactly they mean by that.

 

[k2power]

The US can impose regulations on international species because it has pledged cooperation with CITES. Those regulations only apply here but will provide protections to those species from smuggling. I seriously doubt that ownership of existing tarantulas would be affected nor captive breeding but hopefully it will dissuade future smuggling. IF CITES had imposed listing on the proposed species (NOT ALL POECILOTHERIA WERE PROPOSED) there would have been no reason for proposing ESA listing. I don't know the reason for its denial so can't comment on that.

The results of the surveys in 2003-2005 are very discouraging to those species survival and it would be hoped that all of us would support the preservation of these species in the wild. While we don't have control over habitat destruction we do have control over buying animals that originated from smuggling or their offspring. We do not know the extent of trade in these species in other countries. It would be interesting to hear if wild caught individuals are commonly available outside the USA..

Only the selfish would disagree with putting protections in place that would help preserve the species.

I do like keeping many species in captivity but WILL NOT keep those that my HOBBY might contribute to that species extinction if there are not sufficient protections in place to protect them in the wild and it is know that my actions are part of the problem. That is INTOLERABLE and pure SELFISHNESS. What right do we have to contribute to a species peril just for the sake of our own whims. The people proposing the actions just want protections in place to preserve these magnificient species NOT prohibiting anyone from owning these species already over here.

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

"Tarantula" refers to the European wolf spider that was originally called tarantula before our Therophosidae were. This information is in many books about "tarantulas".

 

[jimip]

it jsut seems to me that captive breed species should be ok. like my little striata it its mom and its moms moms moms mom where breed in a Tupperware bin. why then should it have anything to do with life threating exportation?

 

[6StringSamurai]

"Tarantula" refers to the European wolf spider that was originally called tarantula before our Therophosidae were. This information is in many books about "tarantulas".

Tarantula has come to mean Therophosidae in common parlance, this line from the petition:

"While technically inaccurate, Petitioners use this term because the aim of this petition is to reduce the threat of commercial exploitation, particularly by U.S. entities or individuals, to these species. "

Is a subtle attempt to make hobbyists look ignorant. The term "commercial exploitation" was carefully chosen as well. They're using language to get an emotional response from readers who don't know much about our hobby, like regulators and legislators.

This petition is painting a target on our backs and trying to convince someone with a very large gun to take a shot at us.

 

[missscarlett]

Well Said!! Those were EXACTLY the points I was trying to make, guess I was too politically correct for those to get through ;>.
Captive breeding is, of course, one part of the conservation solution as well as habitat preservation. But unless each one of want to donate the price of our next tarantula purchase towards buying up and paying park wardens to protect said acreage (not a bad idea...), what we CAN do instead is be very careful to pay attention to where our "captive-bred" tarantulas come from and breed responsibly ourselves. Bird-lovers once faced this same sort of problems, and banded together to both protect species AND be more transparent/careful about where their captive breeding stock came from, less they lose the ability to trade in said species legally We might want to do the same?.
It's great to say "Oh, there are no wild-caught Pokies in the US!" but where do you think those guys in Germany who ship to the US get their P. metallica from?? A ban on captive bred documented Pokies already here would never work (and for some very good reasons), but protection of the last remaining wild stock only makes good sense!

 

[Poxicator]

This is armchair conservation unless the body takes some action within their natural habitats. They make some very pertinent points, collected from a number of sources already widely available. Unfortunately destruction of habitat is clear to see, satellite pictures give a very good indication of this and without habitat the species are likely to become extinct. Even in protected areas the natural habitat is under destruction, damaged trees can be used as firewood, but trees are often damaged by those with a basic need for firewood. Note many of these species come from reserves or sanctuaries!

To protect the species we need to protect their natural habitat and fulfil the demand for them as pets by encouraging captive breeding and discourage the purchase of wild caught specimens.

Ive personally seen WC offered for sale, and seen discussions of people purchasing WC P. metallica, for which they were berated in chat/forum. Collection obviously continues especially with those that demand a high price eg. P. metallica - capture a single gravid female and you could be looking at covering the expense of travel, accommodation and enough to make some profit, assuming there's successful slings. If my memory serves me right much of what we have in the hobby originates from rediscovering P. metallica back in 2005. And anyone who has P. hanumavilasum in their collection has indirectly encouraged smuggling, especially as many forums under the suggestion of BTS, banned sales of this species.

Whilst I agree with a number of points raised I'd feel much more comfortable if they explained how "regulating" …"export or possession" helps to protect the species.

What I think we need, is a body of educated and experienced people to explain the benefits of the captive breeding programmes we have in the hobby to WEG. To illustrate how this diminishes demand by reducing the cost and therefore fighting against collection by economics. But also to illustrate, as the BTS puts it, "to promote and encourage the Responsible husbandry, research, captive breeding, conservation and General knowledge of theraphosids, scorpions and associated fauna"

@Stan, have you had any feedback from ATS or BTS on this subject?

 

[dannyboypede]

I think that even if this passes, there is no way to enforce it. What are they going to do? Raid people's houses to find Pokies? They could very well make the sale of pokies nearly impossible and illegal:wall:. Let's assume they can somehow take pokies from all of the hundreds of hobbyists, then what do they do with them? Release them? That would do more to the natural habitat than taking WC specimens. All of the domesticated roaches and crickets carry pathogens, pathogens that are not native to India. If one of these pokies get eaten by a predatory bird or something, these pathogens start to spread. If they want to save the environment, leave captive specimens captive.

--Dan

 

[k2power]

I may be wrong but Mexico clamping down on B. smithii seemed to shut off the flow of WC animals in the US and probably elsewhere. That does reduce the removal of animals from the wild which is NEVER bad for a declining species as many of the Poecilotheria appear to be. I wonder if B. smithii is now stabilizing or are other factors continuiing the decline since its removal from export.

A few Cites I reptiles and many CITEs II are currently in captivity and are unregulated here: Argentine boa, Dumerils boa are both CITES I and readily available. Radiated tortoises are available but pricy. I would guess that all Australian tarantulas (as well as herps) available are the result of illegal smuggling since that country has strict export regulations. Even indigo snakes (US Threatened) are often available, although paperwork should be obtained due to the potential for a legal wrangle that exists if they aren't.

Protection for these species would prohibit importation without proper paperwork and reduce smuggling which is a good thing. The best protection for the species would come from India and Sri Lanka, though I don't know where that is going since CITES was not approved.

I support what the petitioners are trying to do and will contact them as a conservation-minded tarantula hobbyist.

AS for theri trying to make anyone appear stupid....that is nonsense. They were making crystal clear that they were using the common terminology of "tarantula" to mean Theraphosid spiders and not the original wolf spiders.

Captive breeding can stem the flow of WC although that has not been the case for rose hairs, pink toes, emperor scorpions and many other commonly available arachnids and herps. That argument does not work in all cases.

It IS important that we take extra care in preserving the lineages of those species of Poecilotheria petitioned. They as a declining species may be necessary for reintroduction if wild occurring populations become extinct due to habitat loss. That is a last resort but we ought to make sure it is available if needed. This is where the argument of NO HYBRIDS carries a lot of weight. The petitioned species ought to be bred based on locality and obviously species to preserve the genetic diversity that may be unique in each population. Those speces that have fragmented/isolated populations ought to be studied further to determine their relationship before breeding across localities. We may inadvertantly creating hybrids by doing so.

 

[Wachusaynoob]

well, I better start ordering pokies.


what a joke.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

I'm wondering if anybody really even read this, let me point some things out.

From Page 9:

All species in the genus Poecilotheria are arboreal.

They later go on to say this:

Behavior. While they are fossorial, these spiders never close the aperture of their burrow (Samarawckrama et al. 2005). They do not use webs to capture prey; rather, they attack prey from their hiding places (e.g., tree holes, tree trunks, tree barks), and inject venom to immobilize them. Id.

Page 14

For example, the IUCN notes that for Poecilotheria tigrinawesseli:
Although the author provides information on the distribution and status (as not endangered), it is to be treated with caution as the species was collected by members of the international pet trade and the species is named after a well known tarantula trader.

Was there really a guy named tigrinawesseli?

The people proposing the actions just want protections in place to preserve these magnificient species NOT prohibiting anyone from owning these species already over here.

Really? I don't think you read this article then,

Page 17:

Federal listing of these tarantula species under the ESA would contribute to their conservation by, for example,
Regulating import, export, or possession of these species by U.S. individuals and corporations;

Self-explanatory.

We believe ESA listing will help preserve these tarantulas.

ESA listing will permit the development of proactive regulations, including regulating the import, export, and trade of these tarantulas by U.S. entities and individuals.

They believe that regulating and making possession of this species illegal (even the CB ones we have in the states), will help preserve them.

How will that preserve them? Only an action to prevent habitat destruction will prevent them from going extinct. You can regulate the trade, regulate everything, and make it illegal to own them, but if you don't stop the destruction of their habitat they will go extinct no matter what.

Besides, making it illegal to own them will make them harder to get, thus they will become more valuable. And the more valuable they are, the more smuggling will occur.

Like Philth said:

Focus on ending captive breeding , instead of habitat destruction to save a genus? Yea that makes sense........

Well put Philth, this proposal is ridiculous.

 

[Philth]

Was there really a guy named tigrinawesseli?

The name P. tigrinawesseli , tigrina i belive is a latin word for "tiger spider", witch Poecilotheria are often referred to as, and wesseli part comes from one of the original collectors Henrik Wessel Frank.

Later, Tom

 

[Anastasia]

also known as Wessel Tiger Ornamental (common name I can only assume)

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

The name P. tigrinawesseli , tigrina i belive is a latin word for "tiger spider", witch Poecilotheria are often referred to as, and wesseli part comes from one of the original collectors Henrik Wessel Frank.

Later, Tom

Lol okay. That one tripped me up.

 

[k2power]

Regulation and prohibition are two different things.

It baffles me that there is much more anger towards the potential regulation on trade for a few species than the potential for them to become extinct in the wild. Pure selfishness indeed. There will not likely be a ban on ownership of existing ones or captive bred ones. I just don't see it happening. The difficulty will be in getting permits to import them from other countries JUST like CITES already does. This will put additional protections in place to reduce commercial importation (legal or not) and its impact on these imperiled species.

This selfish mentality is intolerable. It is not greenie tree huggers that want to regulate everything that is the problem. It is selfish individuals that have got to have a P. metallica to put in a cage and show off to their friends what a pretty blue tarantula they have that is causing this demand. The only way to mitigate the effect demand is having on wild populations is to regulate it when an unregulated situation was producing unacceptable results.

In NC I am no longer able to go to an area and observe native Carolina parakeets. This is mostly due to the prior generations harvesting them(for their feathers and pets) and habitat destruction, just like Poecilotheria. I do not want this mistake of humanity to occur again just because of our vanity and incapability of doing the altruistic thing of preserving these species in the wild. So what if it means we may not get to have 20 in our house, we need to show restraint and try to contribute to the preservation of the animals we say we care about. When I learned about the fate of the Carolina parakeets as a kid, I was mad at previous generations for the the small piece of beauty and wonder they stole from me and don't ever want species so striking to vanish at our expense again and rob future generations like I was.

 

[pocock1899]

If the USFWS does consider this as warranted for listing, there will be a publication of the fact in the National Register. It will begin a 60 comment period which will allow you to let the USFWS know why Poecilotheria should or should not be listed. Facts will carry far more weight than opinions or rude vents.

(In point of fact, it might not be a good idea to alienate the people making such an important decision about a major genera in the hobby. I'm sure there will be plenty of people intent on making us out to be extremist and crackpots for wanting to keep spiders in the first place. Please don't prove them right.)

It's possible there could even be a public hearing if there is enough interest. Anyone can request one. A request does not mean one will be granted though.

I'm not aware of any other listing that included an entire genus with this many species, but I could be wrong on that. So this could make it rather unique, it might also reduce that chances that all the spiders in the genus would be included. Probably just the most endangered or threatened species would be included, if any.

It's unlikely that the Final Rule would prohibit possession of spiders acquired before the law went into effect. Usually, there is no prohibition against selling them within the state you reside. However, it might deny all interstate commerce. Generally there is no exemption for captive bred unless there is some way to definitively prove that it was captive bred (ie, closed bands on a parrots leg). Kind of problemmatic with spiderlings I would think. In general though, the ESA does not allow exemptions for the pet trade in interstate or foreign commerce. Scientific research, or breeding that enhances he species is permitted, ...with a Captive Bred Wildlife (CBW) permit.

A decision on this is a long way off in any event, but it would be wise to keep abreast of developments. If this petition was presented to USFWS on Oct 29, 2010, they have 90 days to respond. So, right around the end of January, we'll have a better idea on what may transpire. After that response, if it's positive (meaning that there might indeed be a reason to list the genus or some of the species), the next step will be the publication in the National Register, followed by the comment period of (usually) 60 days. Then it's a waiting period as USFWS examines the science, the biology, the ecology and the comments to make their final rule. It can be a year or more away.

 

[Poxicator]

@Chris Skeleton:
Tigrinawesseli - "the species was collected by members of the international pet trade and the species is named after a well known tarantula trader." is a direct quote from IUCN. The species was found in 2004 and described by Andrew Smith in 2006.

...Poecilotheria tigrinawesseli sp. n., is a combination
of two names that have been proposed by the collectors, Henrik Wessel Frank and
Thorsten Kroes. The name wessel, is the name chosen by the senior collector,
Henrik Wessel Frank. The additional name, tigrina is a Latin derivative of the
common Indian name for these arachnids – tiger spider – and is the name that the
second team of collectors wished to be included in the species name.
SMITH, A.M. 2006. A new species of Poecilotheria from Northeat Peninsular India (Araneae, Mygalomorphae, Theraphosidae) With notes on its Distribution and conservation status. Journal of the British Tarantula Society 21(3): 83-94.

Samarawickrama (note spelling) does mention Poecilotheria as fossorial when referring to Smith and Kirk's earlier work but later describes "The most preferred microhabitat of all the species of Poecilotheria is tree holes." However he also continues to suggest the "walls of houses".

 

[matthias]

If you read that document carefully it states that it would be illigal to own purchase trade or export any of the 11 spieces of Poecilotheria regardless of if they are Captive bred or Wild caught!

It does not directly state that, only that including them in the ESA would give the government the ABILITY to do so. That is obviously the goal of this group since most of their argument is based on how the pet trade is exploteing the natural resources.

I am still confused as to EXACTLY what a listing on EAS would mean. But this is something we (as hobbyists) need to get involved with now.

I have check on USFW site and they do not have it any Poecilotheria listed as even being considered. If you check out the Wild Earth Guardian's website they don't even talk about this. I'm wondering if this was stumbled upon before it was even submitted.

 

[6StringSamurai]

this is something we (as hobbyists) need to get involved with now.

This is the right answer. Start reading, start writing calm, polite emails explaining your position.

This is a danger to our hobby that will not do much to help the spiders these people are trying to protect.

 

[matthias]

This is the right answer. Start reading, start writing calm, polite emails explaining your position.

This is a danger to our hobby that will not do much to help the spiders these people are trying to protect.

Exactly, if anyone also keeps reptiles (big snakes) or amphibians you may be aware of the sudden large amount of legislation that has been through at the Herp community. If this is a prelude to something like that we are already behind the game.

 

[jimip]

Regulation and prohibition are two different things.

It baffles me that there is much more anger towards the potential regulation on trade for a few species than the potential for them to become extinct in the wild. Pure selfishness indeed. There will not likely be a ban on ownership of existing ones or captive bred ones. I just don't see it happening. The difficulty will be in getting permits to import them from other countries JUST like CITES already does. This will put additional protections in place to reduce commercial importation (legal or not) and its impact on these imperiled species.

This selfish mentality is intolerable. It is not greenie tree huggers that want to regulate everything that is the problem. It is selfish individuals that have got to have a P. metallica to put in a cage and show off to their friends what a pretty blue tarantula they have that is causing this demand. The only way to mitigate the effect demand is having on wild populations is to regulate it when an unregulated situation was producing unacceptable results.

In NC I am no longer able to go to an area and observe native Carolina parakeets. This is mostly due to the prior generations harvesting them(for their feathers and pets) and habitat destruction, just like Poecilotheria. I do not want this mistake of humanity to occur again just because of our vanity and incapability of doing the altruistic thing of preserving these species in the wild. So what if it means we may not get to have 20 in our house, we need to show restraint and try to contribute to the preservation of the animals we say we care about. When I learned about the fate of the Carolina parakeets as a kid, I was mad at previous generations for the the small piece of beauty and wonder they stole from me and don't ever want species so striking to vanish at our expense again and rob future generations like I was.

im not worryedo out of greed. i would love to own all of these spiders on the list. i also from the first start of my keeping have been buying cb to stop the impact on our wild life its up to us to make sure people stop harvesting for us. the issue i have here is that like the whole you cant ship anything with venom ideas, it will be way harder to get them from other states making it inpossible to get them. if this works out ( and well have to fight hard to even get it close) that we can breed sell and raise these wonderfull spiders. i dont see why importing will be needed