Feeding A T, A Lizard?

JayMoney

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
0
Hi There, I'm fairly new to this amazing hobby, and started myself
with a Female Brachypelma Emilia (Mexican Red Leg).

I found a baby lizard in my room, I caught it, and thought,
If I could feed it to her. Is it a good idea, or a bad Idea?

Let me know what you guys/gals think! :?
 

Ictinike

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
460
Hi There, I'm fairly new to this amazing hobby, and started myself
with a Female Brachypelma Emilia (Mexican Red Leg).

I found a baby lizard in my room, I caught it, and thought,
If I could feed it to her. Is it a good idea, or a bad Idea?

Let me know what you guys/gals think! :?
Feeding vertebrate prey, while not a crime, is looked down upon by many here and abroad. The question is do you have anything else to feed such as crickets, roaches or others? That is a better solution.

Vertebrate prey also can cause damage to the spider that can be prevented which is another reason not to. Damage could be both physical or chemical in that you cannot tell what potential, harmful chemicals and/or pesticides the vertebrate may have consumed. Of course "store" or "shop" bought prey limits the chemical potential.

Cleanup also is a usually a pretty big mess and can lead, if not contained and cleaned, vermin such as mites and other nasties you don't want in your enclosure.

Again, while not a crime and it's been done before, it's just not wise and is heavily debated here.
 

JayMoney

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
0
Feeding vertebrate prey, while not a crime, is looked down upon by many here and abroad. The question is do you have anything else to feed such as crickets, roaches or others? That is a better solution.

Vertebrate prey also can cause damage to the spider that can be prevented which is another reason not to. Damage could be both physical or chemical in that you cannot tell what potential, harmful chemicals and/or pesticides the vertebrate may have consumed. Of course "store" or "shop" bought prey limits the chemical potential.

Cleanup also is a usually a pretty big mess and can lead, if not contained and cleaned, vermin such as mites and other nasties you don't want in your enclosure.

Again, while not a crime and it's been done before, it's just not wise and is heavily debated here.
Ohh, Good to know. I DO have crickets, and some Blaberus Discoidalis roaches, but this little thing happened to be crawling in my room at the wrong
time, and I didn't want to feed it to her, if it would cause her harm. She's only 2.5 years old. So she's not that big.
 

KnightinGale

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
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Sep 16, 2009
Messages
170
A general rule of thumb for prey size if you are ever considering anything else you are unsure of, is half the body length of your tarantula. There may be an occasional exception like a mealworm or something that is long and skinny.
As far as your little lizard friend there, I agree with everything the previous poster said and will add that the chemical cautions go for any wildcaught prey as well. As fun as it would be to go in the yard and grab all sorts of different critters for your T, you never know what those guys have been eating. Lots of people spray their lawns and gardens with pesticides etc. They can build up in the prey creature from its food and give your spider a nasty dose.
I suppose you could always keep the lizard. :) (I wish there were random house lizards up here!)
 

khil

Arachnobaron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
309
they eat small vertebrates in the wild all the time go ahead
ppl feed them snakes on this forum sometimes even

just not TOO much cuz of Ca build up
 

Chris_Skeleton

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
1,310
they eat small vertebrates in the wild all the time go ahead
ppl feed them snakes on this forum sometimes even

just not TOO much cuz of Ca build up
Do not go ahead. For one it is wild caught prey. And please show me where someone fed one a snake.
 

Sutekh

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
17
As others have noted: wild caught prey is considered by most a no-no due to possible pesticides. But also a potential problem would be any parasites the wild caught prey might be carrying (internally or externally). Just not worth the risk when captive bred prey is easy to come by.
 

JayMoney

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
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0
you never know what those guys have been eating. Lots of people spray their lawns and gardens with pesticides etc. They can build up in the prey creature from its food and give your spider a nasty dose.
I suppose you could always keep the lizard. :) (I wish there were random house lizards up here!)
Very good point you have there. I'm not sure if it's really been eating anything crazy, cause the baby lizard isn't any bigger than a Pen cap. But any who, thanks for all the answers.. It's greatly appreciated.
 

Merfolk

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
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Dec 13, 2005
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1,330
I buy anolis juveniles from a pet shop that sell me their ugly and malformed offsprings.
I know plenty of people who feed almost ONLY vertebrates to anything they have that is above 7" legspan; they feed once a month or so and are willing to clean. They just quit coming here... I often catch frogs myself and feed them to my blondi, Pokies etc..(my swamp dwellers love frogs and barely react to crickets) : of course, they are risks that you can diminish and I have been lucky. The Ts I lost were actualy the valuable ones that I tried to feed with crickets and worm alone while the ones with which I was less "politically correct" still thrive (but the ones i lost were due to cold while I was on tour, nothing to do with feeding).

I have talked to many people (including famed authors), and all agree that Ts preys upon verts way more than debated...but most of them are cold blodded and small lizards are high on the list; it's the favorite meal of the large arboreals. The big mistake is to believe that they eat rodents frequently. What Ts are misadapted to eat is protein from a warm blooded herbivore. They simply encounter less of them in the wild and those take longer to digest. Anolis and frogs are gone in a matter of hours and only dry, relatively odorless remains are left. On the other hand, mice take wayyy longer to digest and are often left half eaten, which of course is unpleasant to pick up. When I am out of lizards, I feed mice, but nothing older than 21 days. Beyond this point, they indeed can harm the spider and since the fangs are more likely to miss vital organs, it is a slower death, unpleasant to see if you have any sensibility.

I totaly dislike seing a mouse struggle while getting chewed, but the other feeders they sell here are wayyy too small for some of my Ts. In Europe, they can access large feeder insects, but those are forbidden in Canada. They are locusts and roaches that grow to an acceptable size, but it's a crime to have them here :?:wall: I would gladly switch to those if I could.... I am even willing to grow goliath worms into moths for my Pokes!!!
 

Ictinike

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
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Aug 30, 2009
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it's the favorite meal of the large arboreals.
Merfolk,

No disrespect but how is this known?

I'm not one to feed vertebrate prey, CB or WC, which is my decision and fully respect others such as yourself who wish to partake in doing so. You won't hear a "your wrong for doing it" from me as that is your animal and your right to do so but again I ask how can you prove the above statement?

Not saying your wrong or anything and I can honestly see in the wild a T coming across a plentiful array of various prey animals and being the opportunistic animals they are I'm quite sure vertebrate prey are consumed; however, in a captive scenario what and why do you feel is the rational for going out of your way (other than lack of feeders as you've explained) to do so?

I understand the ability to keep, raise or culture various feeders in other lands but I'm sure there are other avenues other than vertebrates that could be used no?

Just curious as to your thoughts and clarification of the above quote.

Many thanks!
 

Fran

Arachnoprince
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Nov 8, 2007
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Theres no reason to feed them lizards, snakes , mice..etc.

Philth stated CLEARLY the snake was about to die, and that was done once.

Dont make it seem like he does that on a daily basis.

I dont know your background neither how long have you been in the hobby, but saying that since they eat that in the wild you can feed them that in captivity shows very little experience with tarantulas.
 

Chris_Skeleton

Arachnoprince
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Merfolk, I would like to know why you can't just feed the ones over 7" more than one cricket? Make up for lack of size, by giving it more. And larger spiders can take less food from what I've read. 2-3 crickets per week is fine so I can't understand why you feel it is necessary to provide it with more food :?
 

Ictinike

Arachnobaron
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Merfolk, I would like to know why you can't just feed the ones over 7" more than one cricket? Make up for lack of size, by giving it more. And larger spiders can take less food from what I've read. 2-3 crickets per week is fine so I can't understand why you feel it is necessary to provide it with more food :?
Chris,

Good point and one I missed however I think the main reason is in other areas finding suitable feeders is a chore among itself. I believe, from reading responses here, our Canadian counterparts cannot have roaches due to laws or import restrictions and I believe in parts of Europe they are the same.

I'm not 100% sure and I'll allow Merfolk reply to both your and my reply but I believe again it's the availability of larger feeders that is the problem but do agree give multiples of what you have instead of going other avenues such as vertebrate prey.

Cheers,
 

JimM

Arachnoangel
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Nov 6, 2003
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873
One difference though, that snaked was hatched out and raised by hime....and he is a VERY experienced keeper....the lizard in question is WC and could have eaten pesticide infected bugs or the lizard could be infected with pesticides..
Yep...aside from that fact that it's really not a nice thing to do to the lizard, really the only valid reason to avoid this.
Larger T's get quite a bit of vertebrate prey in the wild.
 

DawgPoundSound

Arachnopeon
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
5
You can feed the T's small lizards. It's way out of hand the same stuff spoken when dealing with tarantula hobbyists. Many take their opinions and splash them off on others as if it's the #1 rule of thumb. I've had my T's over a month now and ALL of my adult ladies have feasted on small lizards more than once. They are alive, healthy, and active. If they were dying they'd be slow, lethargic, and huddled in corners or burrows. It's a fairytale.

Tarantulas can eat whatever it is they experience in their natural habitat. It actually makes your tarantula far more active and loving of it's provided environment. Crickets are not the only thing on a tarantula's shopping menu as many hobbyists will hope you believe. If a praying mantis creeps by a tarantula burrow, it's going down. If a small lizard walks by, it's going down. Frog, small snake, etc. And the beat goes on.

In domesticated areas, pesticides are the ONLY danger, because lizards tend to withstand them much longer than insects. However, NO ONE has proof of any small reptile ingesting insects that have been treated with pesticides and living for long periods. As well as simple logic to know, 97% of insects hit with pesticides will die almost ASAP. So a lizard ingesting a bunch of poisoned insects is an urban legend. It's the mites they can carry, or the pesticides on the lizard itself.

If you're catching lizards or frogs near swamps or ponds, careful of mites. No one is spraying pesticides out there. If they are near or in your home, be leary of the pesticides. Otherwise, you're fine. Like I said, when dealing with these animals and reptiles, you still have to use your own better judgement, and NEVER take away who they are.

Enjoy your T's
 
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Draiman

Arachnoking
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This may be worth a read (even though it's to do with frogs rather than lizards): http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=177690

The spider in question in that thread (a 7" adult female Poecilotheria formosa) is still going strong today, after one-and-a-half years on this frog diet, and had her fortnightly frog meal just yesterday. My other Asian arboreals, such as my Lampropelma, Cyriopagopus and Heteroscodra adult females, all get frogs as a regular part of their diet, along with crickets and superworms (Zophobas morio); and are all still doing well. I'm not trying to say this actually proves anything, but I thought I would share.

A lot of people here on AB go on and on about vertebrates and calcium consumption in theraphosids, but most of them have never fed a vertebrate prey item to any of their spiders, and therefore have never had the chance to see that 99% of the time, the resulting bolus comprises only the undigested bones of the animal, be it mouse or frog. Therefore, very little or no calcium is actually consumed by the spider, because calcium deposits in vertebrates are mainly concentrated within the skeleton.
 

Ictinike

Arachnobaron
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In domesticated areas, pesticides are the ONLY danger, because lizards tend to withstand them much longer than insects. However, NO ONE has proof of any small reptile ingesting insects that have been treated with pesticides and living for long periods. As well as simple logic to know, 97% of insects hit with pesticides will die almost ASAP. So a lizard ingesting a bunch of poisoned insects is an urban legend. It's the mites they can carry, or the pesticides on the lizard itself.
Sources of this being an "urban legend"?

"Secondary Poisoning" can and does happen.
 

Merfolk

Arachnoprince
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Dec 13, 2005
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External digestion helps deal with parasites, but not all the time. There is still a risk, but some diseases can also be carried by insect. And regular cunsumption of poison laced food item CAN lead to problems. Switching source is an option then...As for the love of lizards I talked about, well it came from personnal experience (my Ts are really mad about them), and many account as well. I have acquaintances who saw spider munch on lizards in the wild. Arboreal small lizards love to insert themselves in every nook and cranny, some of which were already occupied...

I don't know why so many people absolutely want others to stick to crickets... I mean, some of my Ts don't even touch them anymore but will go ape when a mouse or a lizard is released in the enclosure. I am one of the morons who enjoy winessing an actual hunt rather than collecting crickets. If the prey is unconscious fast, I see nothing wrong. Witnessing predation is my guilty pleasure Mouhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
 
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