Exotic Lair Raid?

[YungRasputin]

honestly should have his collection confiscated anyway but curious if anyone has heard of this or has an opinion on it

“Facebook page of the Department of Wildlife and National Parks posted a statement, saying that Negeri Sembilan’s Department of Wildlife had confiscated 12 Tarantula of different species at a premise located at Seremban.”

Wildlife Department Takes Away YouTuber’s Tarantula Collection Without Warrant, Returns It With One Dead

On 22 October 2021, the official Facebook page of the Department of Wildlife and National Parks posted a statement, saying that Negeri Sembilan’s Department of Wildlife had confiscated 12 Tarantula of different species at a premise located at Seremban. The incident happened on 6 October, and...

worldofbuzz.com

 

[Liquifin]

That is so bizarre. But I don't know what the laws and legalities are over where he is so I don't know what is legal or ethical over there. While I don't like Exotics Lair, I do have to admit that the Wildlife Department returning one of his spiders dead is on them. But the information on the article doesn't go into depth on the laws over there, so I'm going to remain neutral. This is still ongoing, so until the Wildlife Department over there makes a final statement, we can't be sure of what is legal or not over there.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

There is always more to stories like these than what is published. Like @Liquifin, I too am holding my judgements and won't be drawing any conclusions based on that one web site article.

 

[YungRasputin]

That is so bizarre. But I don't know what the laws and legalities are over where he is so I don't know what is legal or ethical over there. While I don't like Exotics Lair, I do have to admit that the Wildlife Department returning one of his spiders dead is on them. But the information on the article doesn't go into depth on the laws over there, so I'm going to remain neutral. This is still ongoing, so until the Wildlife Department over there makes a final statement, we can't be sure of what is legal or not over there.

the reason cited was that a select few specimens within his collection were thought to have been illegally obtained and that he could’ve been involved in illegal trafficking - which honestly to me makes sense given the insane amount of really rare/exotic diseases present within his collection which to me would be indicative of being WC

i’ve always wondered why this was when I’ve never heard of such things in other large collections

 

[wonderful]

Feel so bad for the spider that died. I hope that no more spiders die. I also hope they are being properly taken care of by the wildlife department. I really want to know their side of things.

 

[YungRasputin]

Feel so bad for the spider that died. I hope that no more spiders die. I also hope they are being properly taken care of by the wildlife department. I really want to know their side of things.

same, that’s what i had a problem with per this whole situation is that a) a T died as a result of the raid and b) there was no warrant

 

[HeartBum]

Despite everything... This is a concern for all keepers. I will defend EL's right to be in this hobby should this come about to be a warning or scare tactic of sorts to others.

 

[YungRasputin]

Despite everything... This is a concern for all keepers. I will defend EL's right to be in this hobby should this come about to be a warning or scare tactic of sorts to others.

i don’t see how this is a concern for all keepers since no other Arachno-Tube keeper has experienced this and am also curious about this “i will defend EL’s right to be in the hobby” - like why exactly? i don’t understand why the “hobby” shouldn’t hold those within it accountable

my criticisms of EL are vastly different from that of other YTers such as TarantulaKat, Dark Den, Tarantula Collective, etc - this isn’t a situation in which husbandry practices are questionable or someone maid a rookie mistake or some such thing

he, i would argue, has and continues to engage in behavior which is explicitly abusive, neglectful and which places human entertainment before animal welfare

eg:

- the OBT rehousing video where he places the selected enclosure on high surface, <edit>, the T falls to the floor and directly afterward he engages in the exact same behavior which caused the T to fall to the ground in the first place

- the mold video where the entire enclosure, every inch of substrate, is covered in mold

- multiple videos in which he opens an OW enclosure, walks away, turns his back, babbles about some nonsense and “woah my gosh you guys the T is escaping ”

- his “upgraded” enclosures which include a bunch of superfluous décor which would harm the T if not kill it if it fell to which if a non-famous keeper posted this in AB everyone would be advising them to remove said décor

- all of the handling videos

- all of the videos pertaining to really rare or exotic diseases which other keepers with large collections, as a whole, do not experience

- or the fact that said “upgraded” enclosures contain a substantial amount of height to which, again, if a non-famous keeper were to post this to AB, people would be advising them to add more substrate to the enclosure because of the danger it poses to the specimen

and i truly could go on but feel this is sufficient for now - he’s not new and knows better and i think if you knowingly engage in behavior which could be harmful or potentially fatal to the T, this is abuse, what else should it be called? if you knowingly allow systemic problems to persist in an enclosure, how is this not neglect?

i don’t see how this is any different than dogs, cats, etc being removed from owners which are abusive and/or neglectful - someone having their dog taken because of this is not a reflection or threat to all dog owners likewise this is not a reflection or threat to all arachnid keepers

and while they were temporarily removed because of potential illegal trafficking the collection should be confiscated regardless and be sent to some sort of sanctuary

 

[HeartBum]

i don’t see how this is a concern for all keepers since no other Arachno-Tube keeper has experienced this and am also curious about this “i will defend EL’s right to be in the hobby” - like why exactly? i don’t understand why the “hobby” shouldn’t hold those within it accountable

my criticisms of EL are vastly different from that of other YTers such as TarantulaKat, Dark Den, Tarantula Collective, etc - this isn’t a situation in which husbandry practices are questionable or someone maid a rookie mistake or some such thing

he, i would argue, has and continues to engage in behavior which is explicitly abusive, neglectful and which places human entertainment before animal welfare

eg:

- the OBT rehousing video where he places the selected enclosure on high surface, <edit>, the T falls to the floor and directly afterward he engages in the exact same behavior which caused the T to fall to the ground in the first place

- the mold video where the entire enclosure, every inch of substrate, is covered in mold

- multiple videos in which he opens an OW enclosure, walks away, turns his back, babbles about some nonsense and “woah my gosh you guys the T is escaping ”

- his “upgraded” enclosures which include a bunch of superfluous décor which would harm the T if not kill it if it fell to which if a non-famous keeper posted this in AB everyone would be advising them to remove said décor

- all of the handling videos

- all of the videos pertaining to really rare or exotic diseases which other keepers with large collections, as a whole, do not experience

- or the fact that said “upgraded” enclosures contain a substantial amount of height to which, again, if a non-famous keeper were to post this to AB, people would be advising them to add more substrate to the enclosure because of the danger it poses to the specimen

and i truly could go on but feel this is sufficient for now - he’s not new and knows better and i think if you knowingly engage in behavior which could be harmful or potentially fatal to the T, this is abuse, what else should it be called? if you knowingly allow systemic problems to persist in an enclosure, how is this not neglect?

i don’t see how this is any different than dogs, cats, etc being removed from owners which are abusive and/or neglectful - someone having their dog taken because of this is not a reflection or threat to all dog owners likewise this is not a reflection or threat to all arachnid keepers

and while they were temporarily removed because of potential illegal trafficking the collection should be confiscated regardless and be sent to some sort of sanctuary

Just saying we don't know how much further this could/has been going and who else might end up involved in some form. Wasn't defending EL's husbandry or any of the other things he does.

 

[zoroastrianpulchripes]

honestly should have his collection confiscated anyway but curious if anyone has heard of this or has an opinion on it

“Facebook page of the Department of Wildlife and National Parks posted a statement, saying that Negeri Sembilan’s Department of Wildlife had confiscated 12 Tarantula of different species at a premise located at Seremban.”

Wildlife Department Takes Away YouTuber’s Tarantula Collection Without Warrant, Returns It With One Dead

On 22 October 2021, the official Facebook page of the Department of Wildlife and National Parks posted a statement, saying that Negeri Sembilan’s Department of Wildlife had confiscated 12 Tarantula of different species at a premise located at Seremban. The incident happened on 6 October, and...

worldofbuzz.com

not defending EL here but <edit> thats terrible on the departments part
why even do that without a warrant, ESPECIALLY given the opportunity one is gonna die??

 

[courtney1027]

If it was cute and furry I bet they would have taken better care of it.
Really makes me mad how easily dismissed reptiles, arachnids and insects are just because there not stereotypically “cute”

 

[Xharyel]

I don't wanna turn this post into an EL bashing post, there are many reasons to not like him, sure, but what's happening to him isn't about his husbandry or him as a person or whatever.

I know for sure that I would be terribly upset if that happened to me, A. bicoloratum are kinda rare and expensive (if available) in Europe and if Wildlife department return it to me dead, I'd probably be insulting them tbh. Heck, it isn't even about which species died, they killed a T, and that alone is enough to be furious about.

No one deserves that. If he's doing right by the law, I support him. But if it turns out he didn't have legal papers or whatever, then it's on him. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the department is handling the case poorly...

 

[Matt Man]

if you are gonna post suspicious stuff online (hey exotic diseases) for youtube hits don't be shocked when someone knocks on your door

 

[YungRasputin]

I don't wanna turn this post into an EL bashing post, there are many reasons to not like him, sure, but what's happening to him isn't about his husbandry or him as a person or whatever.

I know for sure that I would be terribly upset if that happened to me, A. bicoloratum are kinda rare and expensive (if available) in Europe and if Wildlife department return it to me dead, I'd probably be insulting them tbh. Heck, it isn't even about which species died, they killed a T, and that alone is enough to be furious about.

No one deserves that. If he's doing right by the law, I support him. But if it turns out he didn't have legal papers or whatever, then it's on him. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the department is handling the case poorly...

i’m not “bashing” him, i am presenting critiques of things which i genuinely believe is abuse and neglect - i would say the same if he wasn’t famous and stumbled onto AB

i’m also not defending either the death of the T or the officials who took them and i think the best way to avoid this situation is to do the research, vet who you’re getting things from, ask questions, check the laws, etc

eg: i’ve been planning on obtaining a Agkistrodon contortrix for the past 6/7 years - I’ve looked into the laws, permit requirements, vetted possible dealers, etc - there’s been times where i thought i might be able to obtain it from X dealer however through vetting i wasn’t comfortable and didn’t pursue it

this is also a species which is v abundant where i live - i could literally go out in the woods and just find a baby and take it home with me however i’m not sure if it would be legal so i haven’t and i think that’s where people screw up - they get so focused on “I want X, I gotta get X, I want X, I gotta get X” that they develop emotional blinders hindering situational awareness

also, i don’t really think this is about the rarity of X species - i think it’s more to do with how and in what way it was obtained which goes back to vetting your dealers and making sure you’re only working with legitimate and reputable people

 

[Xharyel]

i’m not “bashing” him, i am presenting critiques of things which i genuinely believe is abuse and neglect - i would say the same if he wasn’t famous and stumbled onto AB

i’m also not defending either the death of the T or the officials who took them and i think the best way to avoid this situation is to do the research, vet who you’re getting things from, ask questions, check the laws, etc

eg: i’ve been planning on obtaining a Agkistrodon contortrix for the past 6/7 years - I’ve looked into the laws, permit requirements, vetted possible dealers, etc - there’s been times where i thought i might be able to obtain it from X dealer however through vetting i wasn’t comfortable and didn’t pursue it

this is also a species which is v abundant where i live - i could literally go out in the woods and just find a baby and take it home with me however i’m not sure if it would be legal so i haven’t and i think that’s where people screw up - they get so focused on “I want X, I gotta get X, I want X, I gotta get X” that they develop emotional blinders hindering situational awareness

also, i don’t really think this is about the rarity of X species - i think it’s more to do with how and in what way it was obtained which goes back to vetting your dealers and making sure you’re only working with legitimate and reputable people

I get you, what I meant was, original post is about the raid and his Ts being taken away, not about him being a bad keeper. I think it's obvious by now, every now and then EL pops up here and it always creates the same <edit>(and god knows how I cringe whenever I see EL). And I don't think we should expand (again) on why he's bad.

My point was, about the raid, IF he's in his rights, then I'll support him, if he wasn't, then I won't. I don't care if he's a bad or good keeper, we're all equals in front of the law.
It also doesn't change the fact that I'm totally upset about the way the officials handled this whole case, it just reflects poorly on them and their so called "experts". When I was talking about the rarity of the species it is more about the fact that they killed a rare T.

Everything else is speculation, we also probably won't ever know the truth. And the WC or captive discussion is a whole other subject imo. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Europe, like everyone else we have the CITES and other stuff depending on the country (where you might need some sort of certification), as long as you have the papers for x or y species, they won't bother with the origin. It isn't like some other animals that are registered through various means.

 

[Matt Man]

I get you, what I meant was, original post is about the raid and his Ts being taken away, not about him being a bad keeper. I think it's obvious by now, every now and then EL pops up here and it always creates the same <edit> (and god knows how I cringe whenever I see EL). And I don't think we should expand (again) on why he's bad.

My point was, about the raid, IF he's in his rights, then I'll support him, if he wasn't, then I won't. I don't care if he's a bad or good keeper, we're all equals in front of the law.
It also doesn't change the fact that I'm totally upset about the way the officials handled this whole case, it just reflects poorly on them and their so called "experts". When I was talking about the rarity of the species it is more about the fact that they killed a rare T.

Everything else is speculation, we also probably won't ever know the truth. And the WC or captive discussion is a whole other subject imo. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Europe, like everyone else we have the CITES and other stuff depending on the country (where you might need some sort of certification), as long as you have the papers for x or y species, they won't bother with the origin. It isn't like some other animals that are registered through various means.

While I agree with this, if I was a Fish and Wildlife agent and I was seeing videos being posted of exotic imported animals, some with exotic rare diseases I'd wanna have a look-see. The raid was over the top, but I understand the concern of the authorities

 

[Xharyel]

While I agree with this, if I was a Fish and Wildlife agent and I was seeing videos being posted of exotic imported animals, some with exotic rare diseases I'd wanna have a look-see. The raid was over the top, but I understand the concern of the authorities

Definitely, I'm not watching EL so I don't know much about this rare exotic disease? Could you tell me more about this? Or point me towards a video so I can see what exactly is up? IF this is really the case, then yeah, it changes a whole lot of things, right now I'm just lacking too much information on what exactly transpired.

Also, just wanted to add that doxxing him like this was definitely a BAD thing to do, especially for someone as famous as him. We know his city, his name, etc. It can turn out dangerous for him, you never know if there are some crazy people nearby who might wanna rob him or whatever. All in all, everything in this case is terrible, I can only empathize with him at this point.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

A. bicoloratum are kinda rare and expensive (if available) in Europe and if Wildlife department return it to me dead, I'd probably be insulting them tbh.

In Europe depends by the nation in particular. Take Italy, for instance. After the arachnids law of 2003, the wildlife department used to seize T's for, the very second after, simply 'return' said sized T's to the owner, from that point on called "the keeper". Ah ah amazing.

Btw those T's sized episodes were very few, less than 3 or so. Today arachnids fairs/expo returned, no one care anymore.

 

[YungRasputin]

Definitely, I'm not watching EL so I don't know much about this rare exotic disease? Could you tell me more about this? Or point me towards a video so I can see what exactly is up? IF this is really the case, then yeah, it changes a whole lot of things, right now I'm just lacking too much information on what exactly transpired.

i would have to go back and re-watch the videos to cite the specific ailements or describe them however what Matt is saying is his collection has contained several specimens that have diseases and ailements that you don’t see elsewhere in large collections and so on

but off hand from memory there was the “tumor” video, the video in which a T died and was secreting weird fluids, a lot of unexplained sudden deaths, umpteen different parasite videos both with arachnids and his fish, snakes, etc, and so on - just to name a few things, like the sheer volume of parasite videos and what I would consider mystery deaths speak for itself

particularly the amount of arachnid deaths - his channel has been around for 5 years, he has all sorts of species which have long life spans that are well over a decade and within the last year every other video is about yet another T dying? is v sus

and per the OP issue, he actually kind of tells own himself in a lot of videos where he talks about receiving things from unscrupulous dealers and so on

 

[l4nsky]

but off hand from memory there was the “tumor” video, the video in which a T died and was secreting weird fluids, a lot of unexplained sudden deaths, umpteen different parasite videos both with arachnids and his fish, snakes, etc, and so on - just to name a few things, like the sheer volume of parasite videos and what I would consider mystery deaths speak for itself

Devil's advocate here (and that's all, no opinion otherwise), but he does live in a tropical environment that have natural parasites that target tarantulas, among other animals. I know I don't have to worry about that in the middle of the US.