Dubia had 5 nymphs??

[doodleBug]

So I recently started a small Dubia colony. I purchased 10 males and 25 females from a friend with a large healthy colony and they have been doing great. I have roach chow that I supplement with fruit and greens once or twice a week, and the water crystals and egg crates. Today I peeked in and saw two teeny nymphs, probably just under or around 1/4" or 6mm. They are not BRAND new, as they are dark grey and already hardened and I would guess they are around a day or two old as I check in about every other evening (although I may not have seen them last time).

Anyways, after careful inspection I found only 5 nymphs! Now, I was under the impression that one female Dubia will have anywhere from 15-25 babies per "ootheca dropping" (<-- def the scientific term!!), so I guess my question is... what on earth is happening? Maybe a recently matured female has fewer? Did some get eaten? Will they even eat young? Do the mothers leave the young ones alone and the males swoop in and eat them?
Also: Should I/can I separate the nymphs to keep track of them? They are so tiny.... Also, they're cuter than I expected They look like what I called as a child to be "pillbugs" or more commonly "woodlice" in the PNW. If they are still young, can I separate them? The mothers don't seem to be doing much with them in terms of parenting/care. Can they eat roach chow yet? I have the really fine powdery granules not large pellets.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[Andee]

She may be an older female? Do you know how old the females are? It's likely she may be at the end of her breeding age. Or she could of have gotten freaked out from the move. There isn't tons you can do honestly. I would suggest giving some orange, maybe offer some honey directly on a q-tip to her while she sits on your thigh or something (I have done it before to my heavily pregnant or injured females) and most of mine will sit and just eat. Though all of mine know me rather well and don't freak out bad. It may take a couple months for them to get like that with you. Both sugary fruits and stuff like honey will give them a boost of sugar and energy, and if you feed them high fiber green that often is all they need to keep going well. Stuff like bee pollen, spirulina and some extras added in a dry gutload powder will add some healthy vitamins and extra proteins to keep your roaches going. What are you breeding them for? Are they a feeder?

 

[doodleBug]

Not sure on ages, sorry. He said most were younger, and that some may not even be sexually mature yet but that he had a few that he was sure were proven breeders, so my guess is that they may be older and even reaching 'elderly'. Totally fine with that mix though. Stress would make sense for sure... poor things. I didn't really thing about giving "treats" per se lolol I will try honey. I typically give fruit once a week and veg once a week. Fruit is usually oranges, apples or blueberries. Veg is mainly broccoli or lettuce, some kale or other leafy stuff. They seem to love sweet peas! however I am fresh out.

They are feeders, yeah. More so an experiment than anything though. I have one small sling at the moment who seems to be in premolt as of late and I still have several pinhead lateralis left, so no rush on the Dubia only having a few babies. Just wondering if there's something wrong with my husbandry and if there's anything I can do!

 

[Galapoheros]

Well, you know, times are different being millennial roaches and all. I'm surprised it even had babies. It takes a while but, after that while, you will have way too many. They like orange now and then but you probably knew that.

 

[Andee]

I don't view the honey as a treat, usually I only give it at certain times and I usually don't give it on like fruit or something to the entire colony because I am afraid if they step in it they will smell like it and others will chew on the parts of those who smell like it. They generally aren't aggressive with each other and actually communicate in a lot of ways, but sweetness can be hard for them to ignore.

I will go over your husbandry with you and make sure all is well?

Temps?
What kind of container do you keep them in?
How much ventilation?
How often do you offer water sources (like do they have something daily?) and food in general?
Your male to female ratio seems fine to me for now.

 

[doodleBug]

@Galapoheros I imagine I'll have wayyy too many in just a short while. The friend I got them from said he would buy any extras I cant feed of but don't need as adults. he has I think 15 adult Ts, numerous slings (like 20-25 or so??), and other critters including 6 snakes, a few leopard geckos, a bearded dragon, two chameleons, and "more in the back" and is still trying to perfect his lateralis colony, mealworms, and is starting rats to get snake food (on top of a large dubia group!) so he's got the management skills and space to take my extras. I cringe thinking about his rotation schedule keeping everything clean and fed.

@Andee Temps I am keeping in the 85-90 f range, humidity inside the bin in an open space is about 55%. I have them in a micro-climate right now in a 24"x 18" x 26" (le x wi x hi) sterile bin. I don't have a fancy temp gun so that is approximate based on setting it up and setting the thermometer/hydrometer in it for a day or so before I brought the roaches. I tested it several days ago when I took them out to clean as well and left the meters in there for about 30 mins (they adjust very slowly) and it read the same so my microclimate is stable.

I also have a light in there on a 10/14 light/dark timer with a soft yellow bulb.

I have 5 egg crate flats in there stacked vertically, each about 5" wide and 12" tall. The Dubia don't seem crowded and I imagine I'll just add more as the adults multiply.

Ventilation is both a 4" x 10 strip of screen in a cutout in the lid as well as four 1" vents, one on each side at different heights for some cross-ventilation. I was told this is a bit too much but seeing as the temps are holding and they are in a microclimate (with less ventilation) I didn't want it to get stuffy under there. I hear people talk about Dubia "sweating" when venting is poor. What does this look like? Will I know it when I see it?

I keep water crystals in there on a low flat dish (it's a "rock" plastic dish about 1/2" tall and 3"x3", I wet them about every 4 days as they seem to be the main source of humidity and will dry up and evaporate.

Food I have "JK's Dubia Diet" that my friend gave me. Said he supplements it with some fruit and veg and seeing as that's what they were already eating I fed it. After doing some research on a "roach chow" it seems to be pretty popular. As mentioned I also do feed them "people quality" fruits and veggies as well, a few times a week.

As for the ratio it seems people seem to do anywhere from 1:3 to 1:7 and kind of just keep an eye on their behaviors and if the males start fighting over females they add more females (or remove/feed off the aggressive males), if not all the females are getting mated with ("covered?" "mounted?" ... my terminology is 'eh') then they add more males, etc.


Also sidenote: I have seen people saying they add a "cleaner crew" of beetles or something. Is this something I need/should do? What species of beetle?

Thanks for all the help!!

 

[Andee]

Ok you don't need the light... in fact it's likely stressing them out a huge amount. Remember they are roaches, even if they are a tropical species they still act like roaches. I don't know what this sweating is. But I don't add humidity to my enclosure in any way. They get enough by the fruit and veggies I add daily. I have no noticed sweating behaviors, but they will die, molding will happen, and they will rot. I keep my female to males at 4:1 at minimum and that's only because of how large my group is, usually 3:1 suffices. Depending on what's in JK's diet it may be good or bad. Dog food and cat food is often common too, doesn't mean it's good XD.

 

[doodleBug]

The dubia diet reads (per label): Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein - 27.3% Crude Fat - 6.3% Crude Fiber - 4.5% Moisture - 10.7% Ash - 5.8% Says it has no poultry or ruminant by-product and no bone meal (both of which sounds gross). like i said, this is just what he gave me and they seem to like it, but if this is like giving your kids McDonalds for breakfast lunch and dinner let me know your recommendations!

If I take the light out my sling, true spiders, and chameleon would be in the dark all day. I also put my parrot to bed in there and the light wakes him up early enough that he doesn't get rowdy and takes a nap around 3pm They are in an unused room of the house right now while I work on a display/coffee table type thingy to put them on in my room that I'm rigging to be heated from the underside of the glass on one part for the roaches to sit on, since they need so much more heat than slings seem to. My true spiders have a shelf on the side with no heat as they are local and are fine at like 60-something degrees. Their current home is.... weird. I'm not sure what the room was used for tbh, but it's full of shelving and a giant desk with no windows or anything, so nobody goes in there, so that's what I set the light up for is so my critters wouldn't be in total darkness and I don't have to turn on the lamp every time I go in for something. As mentioned, its a soft yellow, I think 10 or 15 watt.

Anywho, in terms of no light, could I just toss a blanket or something over the roach cage? I feel like that would get stuffy :/ If the light is stressing them I'd hate to leave it long term and can certainly move them into a darker space under the desk or something but that would mean no light for the T and chameleon either unless I make a second microclimate. I attached a photo of about how light it is in the roaches microclimate with the light on (no camera flash). It's pretty dark already, almost totally dark as you can see through the screen on top (if you can even tell from the terrible quality). I feel like in their mess of egg crates its probably pretty dim but idk since, you know, I'm not in there I feel like my parrot and chameleon cant be left in the dark. Would it be bad for the sling to be without any light? I'm assuming probably yes. I have a lampropelma sp. if that matters lol Maybe I should just get a 2nd microclimate happening... Can prob do it this weekend even.

 

[Hisserdude]

Actually, as long as they have plenty of dark nooks and crannies to hide in and take cover, the light shouldn't bother them too much, I know several people who actually heat their roaches by using lamps. (Kyle from Roachcrossing for example).

 

[mconnachan]

I keep my roaches in a large tub, with egg cartons for hiding, a small food dish with separate sides, one for water crystals the other for dry food (oats, oatmeal flower, fish flakes all finely chopped with a hand blender) then I supplement with fruit and veg scraps, bread, no meat. I use a heat source under the tub with a water container inside covered with mesh for humidity, the tub lid has a mesh top, hot glued on. I've had the same colony for over three years and they're still thriving, it can take a little time for the colony to become established but once it does you'll be giving them away. Hope this helps. Just do add - I keep them in our small hallway which is always dark, I also put a piece of cardboard over the top of the tub.

 

[Andee]

Oh I thought you meant they had a light in their bin. And I will never support giving a roach light, no matter how well known the people who do, do it. Especially forest floor species like Dubias. It wouldn't be natural for them to come out during lighted times of day at all. And most of the time the light wouldn't reach them.

Ruminants and bone meal means cows and creatures similar who have multiple stomaches etc. and bone meal is just stuff that dogs are fed because a lot of species who eat meat need an entire animal including the bone. However roaches in general do horrible on meat products and stuff like cat/dog food or fish food, because most species of roaches (tropical especially) are not natural eaters of meat. They prefer vegetation in the wild large amounts of protein at once, and all the time can kill their organs quickly and therefore their life span will be shortened. Currently most of my females live to be around 3 years old and most of my males live to be around 2 years. Grains in large amounts are horrible for binding calcium. I make my own gutload. So I don't have a lot I can recommend. But since you raise yours for reptiles, here's what I can say outright. You want to stick to mostly vegetation based gutloads, dry gutloads that are good to look at is combining stuff like repashy superload with something more benign like bug buffet or cricket crack. You would combine something like an entire pound of the benign stuff with an entire bottle of the superload and feed it all the time as your dry gutload.

 

[doodleBug]

Thanks so much for the replies everyone. I was worried I was doing something wrong, and also, generally perplexed as to why there are only five nymphs in one ... "clutch?" lol my terminology is very newbie sorry. But I see so many stories about peoples Ts getting sick or even dying because the newbie followed a care sheet perfectly and the info was wrong! Mainly over-humidifying and under-ventilating, but anywho - I was worried I was making that mistake lolol Most of the animals I have I've either had before or worked with/cared for for friends etc. The roaches are the only critters I have literally no knowledge of and was kinda relying on their breeder to help me out but he's new enough to the 'colony management' lifestyle I wanted to come here too. I'm also the type to value multiple different opinions and don't like having only one source.

I do plan on making my own gutload but for now I don't have the budget for that and have plenty of the 'dubia diet.' I also have no idea where my blender is (just moved) and will need to dig for it. May even still be at the old place. Will start a separate thread for that though.

 

[Andee]

Your current dry food is on the high end for protein levels in my opinion, it has been shown in most studies that dubias do best around 20-24% if I am correct. But it won't do harm in the long run as long as there is no animal protein. For some reason tropical roaches that work like dubias usually digest high plant protein better than lower animal protein stuff. But I think if you provide a limited amount of the dry gutload a day etc. (just enough so they go through it completely preferably in 12 hours) and offer veggies/fruit, every day (providing a huge rotating diet is awesome. I treat my roaches almost like garbage disposables, something that is a bit too gone for me but not moldy is there, some that is too bruises or a bit mealy, something that is not normally a part of the fruit I eat like tops of zuchinni or strawberries sometimes, or pieces of cut ends of sweet potato, frayed edges of organic bib lettuces and red lettuces, kale, other greens, oranges, plums, pears, apples, any types of squash or pumpkin if I have it.) I am well aware not everyone can provide that and my insects are a bit spoiled, but I eat almost everything they do and I also feed my tortoise a lot of things they get as well. And I have a lot of species of insects other than the roaches that eat stuff like that <3

 

[Andee]

If you want some advice with making a dry gutload I can give you most of list when you are around that time, I have a smaller list for most other people because my main list is around 25-30 items.

 

[Hisserdude]

However roaches in general do horrible on meat products and stuff like cat/dog food or fish food, because most species of roaches (tropical especially) are not natural eaters of meat.

Then how come all my cultures that were previously reared on cat and dog food did great? How come I haven't noticed any difference health wise since I switched to a completely plant based chick feed as their dry food? There really is NO notable difference for most species when fed meat based or plant based diets in my experience, but to each their own.

Yes, if you are using them as feeders for vertebrates a plant based diet is healthier for the vertebrates themselves, but the roaches really don't seem to care at all.

BTW, most dog foods are corn based anyway, more corn than meat, and there's no telling what amounts of carrion or dead invertebrates they eat in the wild.

Sort if any of this is coming off harsh, I don't mean it to be, just stating my thoughts and experiences.

 

[Andee]

If you are feeding a poor quality dog food then yes you are going to have something that is literally completely plant based except maybe some flavoring (and the flavoring can be completely plant based). But there are also a lot of grain in those diets, which is a horrible calcium binder. So anything that they would naturally get calcium from as far foods, like veggies etc that provide large amounts of calcium, it would get bound. Same with some veggies that a lot of people think are good like most types of kale, collard greens, spinach, and all types from the cabbage family. Idk how much insectivorous insects or arachnids needs of calcium but it's hugely important for reptiles.

Also all dog/cat food is full of supplements and vitamins that is put there specifically towards the animals that is meant to eat them as needed. Honestly I will never recommend something that is not natural for a species to eat. I don't even feed my dog premade kibbles, and feed my cats the highest quality kibble on the market because of it (I would prefer to feed them a raw diet but I have a diabetic cat and there is certain things I don't trust him with which is weaning him off stuff).

I make my own dog treats and chews, I know what goes in them at the stores and know what shit they are, even the higher quality stuff like Blue Buffalo, I know what's in our general grocery stores is shit XD. It's interesting trust me once you start reacting to stuff and start reading the ingredients and realizing how much actual crap is in stuff and hidden under names you wouldn't expect XD.

Either way, the average life span for a dubia female is somewhere around 2-2.5 years, supposedly. I know I have several females who are 3 years old and some are still producing at that age. Not at their peak numbers, but any nymphs are good nymphs. And I am not about to kill off some females just because they are passed prime breeding age. I don't treat my feeders like cows going to the slaughter. I treat them just as well as my pets, and feed them just as well. But I realize I am a bit different in that respect. I don't look for the cheapest foods to get the job done and over with. I don't do that with any of my animals, and I have a lot. And yet I still save more money than most people do feeding premade store bought stuff. Pet store's over charge more than you realize, and so do most super markets. Most pet store's have something I make about $5.00 off of, while if you bought the amount I charge to make $5.00 off of, you would be spending about 2.5x as much with them and they would be making around $15.00 or so.

Edit: Btw I am not defensive or showing aggression towards you XD sorry if it seems like I am, I generally hate pet stores more than I used to for a lot of reasons.

 

[Hisserdude]

If you are feeding a poor quality dog food then yes you are going to have something that is literally completely plant based except maybe some flavoring (and the flavoring can be completely plant based). But there are also a lot of grain in those diets, which is a horrible calcium binder. So anything that they would naturally get calcium from as far foods, like veggies etc that provide large amounts of calcium, it would get bound. Same with some veggies that a lot of people think are good like most types of kale, collard greens, spinach, and all types from the cabbage family. Idk how much insectivorous insects or arachnids needs of calcium but it's hugely important for reptiles.

Yeah most people do use the cheapest quality dog food they can get, I used to use the stuff they sell at the dollar store lol! XD I'm sure it's got a bunch of junk in it, but hey, roaches are roaches, they are tough and not too picky when it comes to their diets, (at least that's how it is with most species, I do have some that are way more picky though, Eurycotis improcera and Corydidarum pygmaea for example don't do well without fruit being consistently offered in their diet, but they still will eat dog food too).

Most invertebrates don't seem to need a TON of calcium, at least not as much as most vertebrates do. Snails are an exception though, I think they need a lot of calcium for proper shell growth.

Also all dog/cat food is full of supplements and vitamins that is put there specifically towards the animals that is meant to eat them as needed. Honestly I will never recommend something that is not natural for a species to eat. I don't even feed my dog premade kibbles, and feed my cats the highest quality kibble on the market because of it (I would prefer to feed them a raw diet but I have a diabetic cat and there is certain things I don't trust him with which is weaning him off stuff).

I make my own dog treats and chews, I know what goes in them at the stores and know what shit they are, even the higher quality stuff like Blue Buffalo, I know what's in our general grocery stores is shit XD. It's interesting trust me once you start reacting to stuff and start reading the ingredients and realizing how much actual crap is in stuff and hidden under names you wouldn't expect XD.

That's true, it's not natural at all. At the same time though, keeping dubia in cages with no substrate and just eggcartons for hides isn't natural either, but it works!
Nice that you put so much work into making your own food for your dog and cat, not a lot of people care that much about there diet, of course having a diabetic cat must make you look a lot more carefully into their diets!

Either way, the average life span for a dubia female is somewhere around 2-2.5 years, supposedly. I know I have several females who are 3 years old and some are still producing at that age. Not at their peak numbers, but any nymphs are good nymphs. And I am not about to kill off some females just because they are passed prime breeding age. I don't treat my feeders like cows going to the slaughter. I treat them just as well as my pets, and feed them just as well. But I realize I am a bit different in that respect. I don't look for the cheapest foods to get the job done and over with. I don't do that with any of my animals, and I have a lot. And yet I still save more money than most people do feeding premade store bought stuff. Pet store's over charge more than you realize, and so do most super markets. Most pet store's have something I make about $5.00 off of, while if you bought the amount I charge to make $5.00 off of, you would be spending about 2.5x as much with them and they would be making around $15.00 or so.

My first pet roach was a old male Madagascan hissing cockroach, he was missing all of his tibia and always moved so slowly, so I'm sure he was at least a year or two into adulthood. He lasted over three years in my care, longer than any other roach I've kept, and he was fed mainly dog food, with apples and carrots offered like once a week. Your female dubias are quite long lived, surprised they are still reproducing at that age, the only other species I know of that can still reproduce at an exceptionally old age is Lucihormetica subcincta! Obviously you care for them very well, so keep doing what you are doing.

I'm not against plant based diets, and I'm sure that they are much healthier than meat based diets, just saying that I myself have never noticed any difference between cultures fed meat based diets compared to plant based ones. I am currently using a plant based diet for the record though, and so far my roaches really seem to be liking the vegan chick feed I'm giving them. Also feeding my larger cultures a lot more veggies than I used to.

Btw I am not defensive or showing aggression towards you XD sorry if it seems like I am, I generally hate pet stores more than I used to for a lot of reasons.

Same here man, didn't seem like you were being aggressive or anything!

 

[Andee]

I will have to look up the L. Subcincta tomorrow, I haven't hear of them yet o.o. And yes definitely the housing structure for dubia colonies is definitely not normal. I would like to do a naturalistic terrarium for a smaller colony and see how they act differently. Just to see if it benefits. Oh by the way. I have noticed at least one of my adult males in my dubia colonies has a weird protrusion out of the back of his abdomen. It kind of looks like what the females do before they push an ooth out to rotate or start giving birth etc... but I know it's not usually a normal sight for the males (at least I have never noticed it) and this guy seems more skittish than even most of my other males (they are relatively skittish compared to others in the colony). He also looks rather... emacited I guess it would be... deflated? Which is weird unless he's being bullied by the others away from the food? Any ideas?

I know it's a bit off topic and if needed I will totally make another thread *bows*

 

[Hisserdude]

I will have to look up the L. Subcincta tomorrow, I haven't hear of them yet o.o. And yes definitely the housing structure for dubia colonies is definitely not normal. I would like to do a naturalistic terrarium for a smaller colony and see how they act differently. Just to see if it benefits. Oh by the way. I have noticed at least one of my adult males in my dubia colonies has a weird protrusion out of the back of his abdomen. It kind of looks like what the females do before they push an ooth out to rotate or start giving birth etc... but I know it's not usually a normal sight for the males (at least I have never noticed it) and this guy seems more skittish than even most of my other males (they are relatively skittish compared to others in the colony). He also looks rather... emacited I guess it would be... deflated? Which is weird unless he's being bullied by the others away from the food? Any ideas?

I know it's a bit off topic and if needed I will totally make another thread *bows*

They are very pretty roaches, the females typically live 2 years or so in captivity, but some specimens can get to be 4 years old, and can still reproduce at that age, which is unusual considering they are usually close to the end of their lives by that time.

I think one of the big reasons people keep them like they do is to make it easy to find the sizes that they need, in a naturalistic enclosure they'd have to do a lot of digging to find the sizes they need, since dubia like to burrow.

Sounds like some sort of prolapse, probably gonna need to put him down, or at least separate him, since his tank mates may nibble on his prolapse and make matters worse. Either way, if the prolapse is pretty bad, he will die from it.

 

[Andee]

I will likely put him down, it doesn't seem like he's doing well in general, though he's moving fine, I feel like he's on his last legs and will slowly suffer. *sighs* Poor guy, I hate when stuff like this happens, this is my first male I have ever had with this. So I may just feed him to my blue tongue, he will make it quick (he's huge) and I just don't want him to go to waste... it's just hard when it happens like this... Now I just gotta find him again. He tends to stick away from everyone else.