Double clutch on breeding loans

[obie]

What's you guys opinion on a breeding loan when the female lays another sac. Would the owner of the Male be entitled to half that sack as well. Or should that have been discussed at the beginning.

 

[jrh3]

What's you guys opinion on a breeding loan when the female lays another sac. Would the owner of the Male be entitled to half that sack as well. Or should that have been discussed at the beginning.

all of this should be discussed in the beginning.

 

[Vanessa]

In my books - yes. The male's sperm was responsible for both, so I would be handing over half of both sacs.

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

I can offer no opinion, I'm just thinking Best episode of "The People's Court" ever!

"This is the plaintiff. He claims that his spider's male was a rock-star of insemination and believes he is entitled to half of the additional fruit of the male's loins"

"This is the defendant. He claims that while his female did indeed produce a double clutch, there is no proof that she was impregnated solely by the plaintiff's male and that it could be argued that his female could be of questionable moral fibre. Stay tuned to see what Judge Judy thinks about "The Case of the Salacious Spider"

 

[Theneil]

If it was not discussed previously, i would assume that the second sac would be split the same as the first. However, i who eats the shipping cost, i am a little less sure of (unless both sacs shares are shipped at the same time.)

 

[bulbophyllum]

I would say no. The bulk of the work is on the keeper of the female tarantula. The fact that a 50/50 split is a common practice has always seemed not quite fair to me. I would say if it was not talked about before hand it is up to the keeper of the female. That being said I would probably another 50/50 split if it were my female. But, if the table were turned I would not be upset if I wasn't offered the same.

 

[FrDoc]

I look at this way, the female double clutched. The male merely took care of the business for which he was sent. If the owner of the female is a giving soul, I think offering half of the second sack is a standup thing to do. However, I do not see an obligation to do so. Additionally, some keepers may not want another 40 or 50+ slings to keep until they sell.

 

[Colorado Ts]

What's you guys opinion on a breeding loan when the female lays another sac. Would the owner of the Male be entitled to half that sack as well. Or should that have been discussed at the beginning.

We would need to see the exact wording of the loan agreement.

If the agreement was 50/50 if a sac is produced...then no, the second sac is not included in the agreement.

If the agreement was 50/50 of the slings produced, then absolutely the second sac is included.

 

[Vanessa]

Well, it's obvious that the OP wanted to hear no - since those are the only responses that are getting feedback. I guess that's why so many people won't do 50/50 loans anymore.

 

[Brachyfan]

50/50 deal on a double clutch of Lasiodora parahybana would be a nightmare!

 

[cold blood]

We would need to see the exact wording of the loan agreement.

If the agreement was 50/50 if a sac is produced...then no, the second sac is not included in the agreement.

If the agreement was 50/50 of the slings produced, then absolutely the second sac is included.

I see that as using semantics to justify keeping everything....lol...like winning a court case based on taking advantage of how something was worded or written even knowing its not right.

I've never discussed double clutches, but I've had it occur on loans twice....both times slings were offered from the second...once the loanee had what he wanted and didn't want or need more....the other time I sent out a second shipment of slings.

I personally would feel scummy to not mention it or at least offer something extra to the person who loaned the male.

JMO

 

[Vanessa]

I see that as using semantics to justify keeping everything....lol...like winning a court case based on taking advantage of how something was worded or written even knowing its not right.
I've never discussed double clutches, but I've had it occur on loans twice....both times slings were offered from the second...once the loanee had what he wanted and didn't want or need more....the other time I send out a second shipment of slings.
I personally would feel scummy to not mention it or at least offer something extra to the person who loaned the male.
JMO

100% spot on. People who give up males in loans are taking HUGE risks. They have to trust that the person...
a) knows what they're doing and aren't using your male for practice. That includes any special handling of the female to ensure that an egg sac is actually laid after pairing.
b) isn't just using a 'free tarantula' to get attention on social media and has every intention of letting him get eaten just for the YouTube footage.
c) doesn't rip you off by telling you the female ate the male and then passes along (still your) male to other people for money/spiderlings.
d) doesn't rip you off by telling you the female moulted without laying while they wholesale 100% of the spiderlings to someone else.
All the while the person with the female takes almost zero risk and sits back and acts like they're the ones doing YOU the favour.
This is a no-brainer for me, the person who did ME the favour by giving me the male gets half of ALL spiderlings that he was responsible for producing... full stop.

 

[Theneil]

I

100% spot on. People who give up males in loans are taking HUGE risks. They have to trust that the person...
a) knows what they're doing and aren't using your male for practice. That includes any special handling of the female to ensure that an egg sac is actually laid after pairing.
b) isn't just using a 'free tarantula' to get attention on social media and has every intention of letting him get eaten just for the YouTube footage.
c) doesn't rip you off by telling you the female ate the male and then passes along (still your) male to other people for money/spiderlings.
d) doesn't rip you off by telling you the female moulted without laying while they wholesale 100% of the spiderlings to someone else.
All the while the person with the female takes almost zero risk and sits back and acts like they're the ones doing YOU the favour.
This is a no-brainer for me, the person who did ME the favour by giving me the male gets half of ALL spiderlings that he was responsible for producing... full stop.

think you forgot to mention that usually the owner of the male also pays to ship the male ($50-60 in the US). So they are bot just potentially loosing a spider but also money on top of if.

 

[Colorado Ts]

I see that as using semantics to justify keeping everything....lol...like winning a court case based on taking advantage of how something was worded or written even knowing its not right.

I've never discussed double clutches, but I've had it occur on loans twice....both times slings were offered from the second...once the loanee had what he wanted and didn't want or need more....the other time I send out a second shipment of slings.

I personally would feel scummy to not mention it or at least offer something extra to the person who loaned the male.

JMO

You are an honorable person, and someone who could be trusted...rare breed these days.

Unfortunately the days of the handshake deal is dead...you need to update your business dealings or risk getting burned.

Personally, I would rather live in your world.

 

[Vanessa]

I think you forgot to mention that usually the owner of the male also pays to ship the male ($50-60 in the US). So they are bot just potentially loosing a spider but also money on top of if.

Yes, I didn't take that into account... because I won't ship a male for a loan and I will only deal with people locally. I very, very, rarely do loans with anyone - I stick to people I know personally and who have a stellar reputation in the hobby - so I personally wouldn't be incurring that cost on top of everything else.
I pay attention to everyone, both here and on Facebook, and make mental notes of who never to deal with on 50/50 loans and my list of people I am comfortable with just keeps getting smaller and smaller. If this were a person local to me making this post, they would be taken off my list.

Unfortunately the days of the handshake deal is dead...you need to update your business dealings or risk getting burned.

People just have to be prepared to fork over money for the male and that could very well be far more than you really want to pay for him. So, you either act honourably, or risk that people won't do business with you. Like I say above - I pay attention to what is said online all the time. I might not comment, but that doesn't mean I didn't see it. I have some pretty uncommon tarantulas and some of them are male... there are people already asking me for them and they are only juveniles. If you've said something that makes me wary of you - then you better be prepared to either pay full price for my males, or have me refuse them to you altogether. Nobody is entitled to someone else's mature males, nobody is owed a mature male. Pay up front, or pay in the back end. You rip people off and you won't be getting both options anymore.

 

[Theneil]

You are an honorable person, and someone who could be trusted...rare breed these days.

Unfortunately the days of the handshake deal is dead...you need to update your business dealings or risk getting burned.

Personally, I would rather live in your world.

To be honest, most of how i opperate is “Handshake deals”

I don't have an official site that takes orders and keeps records, never make any formal contracts for anything, many people pay via friends and family, i always pay friends and family unless asked not to. I often ship first on trades, etc. There are plenty of decent people out there still, they just don’t get the attention that the crappy ones do, and sadly, it does seem that more and more people think it is acceptable to to do what they can get away with, rather than what is right, but there are still plenty of good ones out there, and so far the Tarantula crowd seems to have plenty of good ones IMO.

Yeah, i have been burnt a couple times, but i have done quite a few transactions and most have gone well. Also, for the record, moat of my dealings are buy/sell. I try to avoid loans usually because i am not confident in my ability to produce, and most breeders i know, prefer to buy rather than borrow males. I do loans occasionally and honestly, have yet to receive anything, but i know going in that chances were slim on many.

several makes and females lent to a neighbor with even less experience breeding than myself, Sending a female out that was less than fresh in her molt cycle, Sending males off to first time (attempting) breeders, Etc.

 

[Colorado Ts]

Yes, I didn't take that into account... because I won't ship a male for a loan and I will only deal with people locally. I very, very, rarely do loans with anyone - I stick to people I know personally and who have a stellar reputation in the hobby - so I personally wouldn't be incurring that cost on top of everything else.
I pay attention to everyone, both here and on Facebook, and make mental notes of who never to deal with on 50/50 loans and my list of people I am comfortable with just keeps getting smaller and smaller. If this were a person local to me making this post, they would be taken off my list.


People just have to be prepared to fork over money for the male and that could very well be far more than you really want to pay for him. So, you either act honourably, or risk that people won't do business with you. Like I say above - I pay attention to what is said online all the time. I might not comment, but that doesn't mean I didn't see it. I have some pretty uncommon tarantulas and some of them are male... there are people already asking me for them and they are only juveniles. If you've said something that makes me wary of you - then you better be prepared to either pay full price for my males, or have me refuse them to you altogether. Nobody is entitled to someone else's mature males, nobody is owed a mature male. Pay up front, or pay in the back end. You rip people off and you won't be getting both options anymore.

You get it.

To be honest, most of how i opperate is “Handshake deals”

I don't have an official site that takes orders and keeps records, never make any formal contracts for anything, many people pay via friends and family, i always pay friends and family unless asked not to. I often ship first on trades, etc. There are plenty of decent people out there still, they just don’t get the attention that the crappy ones do, and sadly, it does seem that more and more people think it is acceptable to to do what they can get away with, rather than what is right, but there are still plenty of good ones out there, and so far the Tarantula crowd seems to have plenty of good ones IMO.

Yeah, i have been burnt a couple times, but i have done quite a few transactions and most have gone well. Also, for the record, moat of my dealings are buy/sell. I try to avoid loans usually because i am not confident in my ability to produce, and most breeders i know, prefer to buy rather than borrow males. I do loans occasionally and honestly, have yet to receive anything, but i know going in that chances were slim on many.

several makes and females lent to a neighbor with even less experience breeding than myself, Sending a female out that was less than fresh in her molt cycle, Sending males off to first time (attempting) breeders, Etc.

I agree with much of what you say, handshake agreements...that's after trust has been established. I develop a business relationship based on trust. I am cautious, but I will not do business with a person that I do not trust. It’s a two way street, it I try to always protect myself, just in case things go south.

Yes I've been burned before...but I've only been burned when I've ignored that little voice telling me to be cautious, or to walk away.

 

[obie]

Well, it's obvious that the OP wanted to hear no - since those are the only responses that are getting feedback. I guess that's why so many people won't do 50/50 loans anymore.

How is that obvious. Maybe I feel like I should get half the sack and I didn't get my Male back.

 

[Theneil]

How is that obvious. Maybe I feel like I should get half the sack and I didn't get my Male back.

I believe @Vanessa probably came to that conclusion because you had hit agree on the posts saying that the owner of the male should not get a cut, but not on the posts saying they should.

 

[obie]

I believe @Vanessa probably came to that conclusion because you had hit agree on the posts saying that the owner of the male should not get a cut, but not on the posts saying they should.

Oh ok