Double Bootie

[JColt]

Vagan with 2 rumps in Russia. Very odd looking!

http://www.tarantulas.ru/tex/nonsens.htm

 

[Talkenlate04]

Yep this has been posted a few dozen times before. But still every time I have an egg sac I find myself wishing one would be a mutant. Guess the odds are pretty bad on getting one.

 

[DrAce]

At the risk of being anally retentive, I should point out that this is not a mutation, but an embryological disorder. Nothing genetic is out of order, but there was a problem with the embryo physically - it failed to separate after splitting.

Anyhow, I know you knew that Talken... but I felt like writing it down anyway because I'm bored

 

[Talkenlate04]

there was a problem with the embryo physically - it failed to separate after splitting.

Based on what you just said how on earth is it not mutation?

Here is one of the definations of a mutation,

a change or alteration, as in form or nature.

Sounds like double abdomen fits the bill for a mutation to me.

Other definations include,

The act or process of being altered or changed.
An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
Genetics
A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
A mutant.
Linguistics The change that is caused in a sound by its assimilation to another sound, such as umlaut.

 

[forhorsmn]

Let's think about conjoined twins. Somewhere during development, the egg didn't seperate (sp). That seems to be what happened here. If you had 2 of these, and they mated, you would end up with normal slings not 2 butted ones. That's just my 2 cents.


O.K. maybe I should have looked at the link first. It appeares to be be more than one sp. of T. The fact that it's not just one sp., maybe we are seeing more evidence of what happens after a nuclear reactor accident. If people are showing signs of mutations years later, why not wildlife?

 

[ShadowBlade]

Based on what you just said how on earth is it not mutation?

Here is one of the definations of a mutation,

Sounds like double abdomen fits the bill for a mutation to me.

Other definations include,

Because it is not a mutation of the single organism's development.

-Sean

 

[Talkenlate04]

So if I was born with 6 fingers is it a mutation or an embryological disorder?
Mutation when you read the definition covers a broad range of things. Pretty much anything out of the norm could be considered a mutation.
But I am done with the semantics of this conversation.
Nothing will stop me from hoping I have one in a batch of slings some day that’s for sure.

 

[Stylopidae]

Based on what you just said how on earth is it not mutation?

Here is one of the definations of a mutation,

Sounds like double abdomen fits the bill for a mutation to me.

Other definations include,

When talking about animals, it's wise to use the proper technical definition that is used by biologists and not popular refrence sources that are written by laypeople. I'm guessing that came from dictionary.com

Whenever a biologist refers to a mutation in an organism, they're talking about changes at the genetic level of the organism.

This is a non-genetic deformity, caused when the embryo failed to completely seperate during the twinning process.

This happens in humans, sometimes resulting in conjoined or parasitic twins.

 

[Nerri1029]

OK let me try to explain it better.

Mutation - a change in an organism due to genetic changes. This change CAN be passed to offspring.

Growth disorders - changes caused by an external cause, disease etc.


I taught a girl who had 4 toes on each foot. - she had this trait due to her genes. She would have had 4 toes no matter where she grew up or what happened to her in the womb. - her genes said "4 toes".

Take a diff situation. A pregnant woman undergoes some tests, and the Dr. sticks the needle into the womb and damages both pinky toes of the infant preventing them from forming. But the genes that this child has says "5 toes".
this infant's genes are 'normal' and not mutated


These children will look the same ( though there may be some scarring on the second case )

this help?

 

[Talkenlate04]

I thought a growth disorder was genetic??
So wait is a miget a genetic disorder and not a mutant?
And if I was around a nuke site and grew a third nipple then thats a mutation. Right?
Sorry I am having a hard time coming up with compairsons. (don't go picturing me with a third nipple.) :}


I still dont get how a embryo doing something it would not normally would not do is not a mutation but rather a disorder.


EDIT; Wait so is a mutation re occuring?

 

[Stylopidae]

I thought a growth disorder was genetic??
So wait is a miget a genetic disorder and not a mutant?
And if I was around a nuke side and grew a third nipple then thats a mutation. Right?

Maybe, maybe not. Some people have had their pituitary glands damaged by surgery, resulting in a deficit or surplus of human growth hormone.

Others have tumors which push up against the pituitary and either accellerate or stunt their growth this way.

Others have defects in their pituitary which results in stunted or accelerated growth.

There are about 200 different kinds of dwarfism, BTW. Pretty much all genetic AFAIK.

As for the third nipple that would most likely be a genetic mutation, assuming nothing funky happened when you were a fetus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

http://medical.lpaonline.org/

http://www.pituitarysociety.org/public/faq/hypopituitarismfaq

http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/TranssphenoidalSurgery.htm

 

[By-Tor]

Scoliosis is a growth disorder, having two digestive systems is enough of one to get you labeled as a "mutant", even if the other half should have been your brother...

point is mutant = Title, not an implication of genetic mutation

 

[Talkenlate04]

point is mutant = Title, not an implication of genetic mutation

See this is always what I thought. I realize now that it carries significant scientific meaning, but to me mutant was always a title meaning basically "FREAK OF NATURE"

I did learn something though even if it’s still a bit jumbled in my head. Nerri and Ches thank you much for trying to break it down for me.

 

[Stylopidae]

point is mutant = Title, not an implication of genetic mutation

Maybe, maybe not. Biologists (like myself...kind of) generally use the term 'mutation' to describe something happening on the genetic level.

As for trying to break it down, no problem. I just got access to the online databases of peer reviewed journal articles at ISU and I've been trying to read them a little at a time.

 

[Talkenlate04]

As for trying to break it down, no problem. I just got access to the online databases of peer reviewed journal articles at ISU and I've been trying to read them a little at a time.

Oh wow. See once you know how to regurgitate what you read and have a good understanding, and can explain to others then that’s fine, but reading all that material has to be really dry and somewhat tiresome. I have tried a few times to dive into certain writings but the format and the language puts me into a coma.

 

[By-Tor]

hmm "Maybe, maybe not" and "generally" are pointing to the same language issues that I'm having. IS it a case by case basis for the meaning of the word?

English really is a terrible language any way you look at it, but what I ment to say here would be "point is in this case mutant = title"

 

[cacoseraph]

hmm "Maybe, maybe not" and "generally" are pointing to the same language issues that I'm having. IS it a case by case basis for the meaning of the word?

English really is a terrible language any way you look at it, but what I ment to say here would be "point is in this case mutant = title"

english is NOT a terrible language. it is the most expressive, has the largest vocabulary, and is possible to say things the most exact of any language. for these reasons, among others, english remains an important language in the scientific community.

like most complex things, it is "hard" to use because it is versatile. most people do not use english properly. i was an english tutor for something like 10 years, in HS and college... and i still have to really work on using english properly. when i post, i most definitely do *not* use it properly, incidentily.


the problem with forums is that something like 1-3% of the people posting are actually coming close to using english properly. people like scientists and engineers, or people who work with such like generally have a precision lacking in other people. this is where a LOT of problems come in. like, i barely ever say "always" without qualifications or caveats... cuz very few things in the hobby ALWAYS (100% of the time, without fail) happen... but i'm sure if you searched for the word "always" not only would you find it used thousands of times... but you would find a number of times when *i* use it incorrectly or inaccurately... and i'm actually *trying* to speak in the least confusing manner possible. heh.



does this mean people need to have 6 English references books, three different technical dictionaries, a thesaurus, and the MLA style reference (not used in sci stuff, but only one i can think of off hand) when posting? not at all... BUT (that's a huge but!) sometimes there will be a bit of chaos from innacurate use of english, or using different definitions of the same word, or whatver... so sometimes info is going to get mangled and we need to be aware of that

 

[DrAce]

Based on what you just said how on earth is it not mutation?

Here is one of the definations of a mutation,

Sounds like double abdomen fits the bill for a mutation to me.

Other definations include,

It seems I opened a can of worms, and I didn't mean to. I also apologise if I managed to cause some offence in the process.

Also, I've missed all the resulting fun.

Biologists would be reasonably clear, a mutation is a 'novel heritable change' in an offspring. Not DNA per sey - although that's by far the most common type.

Now Shakespeare would argue that it's anything new, not seen in the parents, but that's why English is such a wonderful language. It's malliable, adaptable and easily reshaped into new situations. Most words are pretty clear, but they are not used correctly, lending the appearance of some discordance in the language. Now there are several other languages which lack this, some of the Romance languages for example. I mean, France even has a Ministry devoted to the creation of new words... how silly is that?

 

[JColt]

Sorry, Didnt mean to cause a sh*t storm,

 

[DrAce]

Sorry, Didnt mean to cause a sh*t storm,

I believe it was me being a smart ass that did that.