Do you feel husbandry standards have stagnated/stopped improving?

[RezonantVoid]

Before continuing to read or voting, when I say husbandry I'm primarily referring to the way we recommend tarantulas are housed (such as enclosure choice, primary type of substrate, and most common types of decor).
This is also NOT a callout post criticising keepers, if it comes across that way I apologize.


Now when I first started properly trying to keep tarantulas in 2018, this website was an invaluable assistant that I immensely appreciate for getting me off on the right tracks. Unlike random web caresheets, alot of information/recommendations provided here are backed by logic and personal experiences, which really appeals to me. Because of this, I have thoroughly enjoyed learning various tips and dos/don'ts and growing as a keeper, all the while trying to improve my care standards to give my stuff the best/most accurate environment I can.

But as I started doing this, the learning progressively stopped. I wanted to see how I could leave behind the boxes of cocofibre and cork and make really natural, eye catching setups. As both a keeper and collector, all the places I went to get spiders showed them in vastly different environments to how I was keeping them. So I started experimenting with various clay/loam and sand ratios, adding or removing peat and different types of clay with the aim of replicating wild substrate consistency as best as I could, all the while comparing how fast specimens would settle in to both these new experiments of mine and conventional peat/coir and cork bark setups. I've already mentioned this process briefly in another thread but all in all, I've repeatedly seen significantly better reception from T's, trapdoors, curtain webs, wishbones, metallic tubes, mouse spiders and funnelwebs alike from putting a small amount of effort in to personalising their setups instead of giving everything the same setup.

Here were my setups in the early days



They tick all the boxes. They have sufficient damp peat moss, materials/objects to hide under, most had dishes, and ventilation. The spiders seemed happy, but I strongly believe now that "exploring behaviour" is a sign of an unhappy specimen. A burrower should never feel the need to exit it's home.

But, these are my setups fast forwarding to 2021





Some may find the aesthetic to be too cluttered, and I respect that, but they are each personalised with varying types of substrate, materials local to their inhabitants where possible, and vibrant eye catching scapes that actually make them appealing to look at. They are designed around the spiders habitats instead of what I assume would work.

When I see nothing but benefits and happy spiders for not a great deal of effort, I find myself wondering why almost nobody else around me is trying out similar things? Sure, a tarantula can live perfectly well in peat moss and/or a hollow cork tube, but why merely let them live when we can let them thrive? What if there's astonishing behaviour that we are missing out on because the way we house things prevents it? I ask all of these things quite regularly, and when I look at how keepers still recommend tarantulas be kept, i can't help but wonder if we should be raising the bar a little.

Once again, this is just a viewpoint question with no right or wrong answer. I'm just genuinely keen to know if I'm the only one that feels this way. Perhaps my current standards of fully natural, personalised care is overboard? I want to hear it. Thank you for reading

 

[Poonjab]

There is always potential for improvements. It takes those seeking the answers to find them. Trying new approaches are how discoveries are made.

 

[Edan bandoot]

I think how we handle hides, substrate and "terrestrial" species is completely wrong. I have a thread planned for the future but It's still in progress...

I think what you're doing is great mate!

 

[8 legged]

There are no official standards anyway, so there are different ways that lead to success. It also depends on the environment, the financial possibilities, etc.
For example, I would advise everyone against one of these milky plastic boxes - that's enough for the spider, but not for me. For me, a clear view is at least as important as the spider's condition. Anything other than glass only takes place in my rearing - if necessary.
I see the standards of care for spiders as very flexible, whereby your own experience plays a role here - if you don't have that, certain pillars are recommended, such as "which substrate", "how much of it" and, above all, "that doesn't work at all." are very important at the beginning.

 

[Smotzer]

I think that for those of us who have been in the hobby a bit or pour into the more adavanced side there is always room for improvement and I have been experimenting with set ups like yours and it can make a great deal of difference.

but I feel like the standard “corkbark, fake plants, straight substrate or commercial substrate, and water dish” which is the standard, doesn’t necessarily need to really be changed across the board because new comers who don’t understand husbandry inside and out in the first place easily mess things up as it is, and trying to set up more advanced set ups like you have may cause more issues if it was the standard. Or maybe not, idk.

I have seen behavior change heavily depending on how much forethought is given to the enclosure in a more natural sense, but the adaptability to be kept more simply works for the masses. That being said I think there are considerable pros to actually thinking about more natural set ups, some of the so called very defensive species, are laid back how I have set them up, so some of the issues people have in the beginning may potentially be mitigated by going the advanced route.

It’s a balancing act. That which I think is subjective for lots of reasons and how serious someone is about keeping tarantulas or arachnids. For the majority of people who keep just one or two and have no intentions to breed or adavance the hobby I think the standard is fine to begin in the hobby.

There are pros and cons, and I think it’s comes down to what you want out of the hobby. If it’s to have just a cool pet with the trend then I think the standard is mostly fine, but if you want to observe behavior and get in-depth, maybe we should all come up with a more standard for advanced keeping. at least this is how this subject makes sense in my eyes.

 

[Dorifto]

It's pretty obvious what my opinions are.

There is room for improvements, like everything in this life, but imho the biggest step the hobby could take, is to understand how several things work, like humidity, climate, soil, heat mats, rather than demonizing them. Understanding them and then teaching those correctly to the new keepers, imho it'll give them a better perspective to allow them to keep them more accordingly to their needs.

Humidity, climate and the enclosure (ventilation included). Understanding this point, could save a lot of Ts, and unfortunately it's ignored completely. It could be simplyfied as lower the RH in a warm room, the faster the things will dry, and the higher the ventilation, the more exposed they will be to those changes. Starting from this simple point, and being aware of this, a lot of keepers could change their husbandry, enclosures etc to be more favorable.

Soil, this is personal, and I don't have any special aversion to coco fiber. But a good soil it's capable of changing the Ts behaviour completely, and to achieve that there is no need to buy a mega expensive mini bag of ultrapremium brand. You can find a bag of topsoil with the correct components, source your one from a landyard, or make your own blends to be as close as possible to their habitats for few bucks. Also they will make keeping Ts way more easier, specially moisture dependant ones and burrowers/fossorials, a good blend makes wonders.

Plants. It's directly related to the first point of humidity etc. As demonized as heat mats, but they help controling, excessive moisture, humidity and heat. Unfortunately there is too much misinformation around them and usually pointed like a big no, when in reality they only are beneficial. But you need the right ones.

Heat mats, the most demonized thing in this hobby...


Money... I made my setup using less money than some waste in a single acrylic enclosure. It's all about searching, reading, learning and having or to learn how to have some skills.

 

[greeneyedelle]

I think advanced husbandry is a an opportunity for personal evolution and not the hobby as a whole.

Somewhat like keeping plants, lizards, snakes: There is such a WIDE range of what's acceptable for keeping, and what's optimal. It's not an uncommon concept. You see people who keep and breed leopard geckos (same with corn snakes, ball pythons, etc.) housing their animals in plastic boxes in a big shelf with paper towel as substrate, an overturned cream cheese bowl with a crude cutout as a hide, and a water dish... and that's it. The animals aren't being harmed, they're eating, they're plump, but do they thrive? And how would we know? There may be too many individual nuances in each specimen (eating habits, aggression) to say with certainty that it's the husbandry affecting that specimen's behavior.

I don't know that I can agree that a happy tarantula is one that doesn't feel the need to leave its hide or burrow. My experience has been that even with optimal husbandry, my specimens are still spending a lot of time outside of or at the mouth of their burrows and hides, and they're in relaxed, comfortable stances, they're not defensive or hugging legs to their cephalothorax. That could be for any number of reasons but I hypothesize that it's because my basement is dark. If I leave lights on, I find they're more likely to be found hiding in their burrows. That's been my experience with arboreals, fossorials, and terrestrials equally. Now, there's a difference between "relaxing outside of a burrow" and "exploring", and that may be a very valid correlation in the contentment of specimen.

The improvement of husbandry comes down to preference and intent, in my opinion. I love aesthetics. My tarantulas are "pets" for lack of a better term. I'm not breeding, I don't have an exorbitant number of them. I keep to observe and to theorize and to learn, and to enjoy watching my t's. That's it. The aesthetic of an enclosure and the husbandry that encourages the longevity and contentment of my animals are my priorities in the long run, but in the same breath, I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping them basically either because I don't think they have the cognizance to realize that there's something extra lacking in their husbandry.

It's a fascinating discussion though! And I love your enclosures

 

[zeeman]

I think your new enclosures look great. I have no idea how the one with green moss / plants doesn't have a T that would bolt right out the enclosure when you open the lid... I get their propensity is to bolt into their burrow but you've given them an essentially level escape route out of the container. That would make me nervous every time I open it.


For me, there Is a difference between what an animal needs and what we want as keepers. Does an animal with the intelligence of a tarantula or scorpion need enrichment, or is it just as happy with a dark hole, a regular food source, and water? I tend to lean toward the latter but I think building an enclosure that makes me happy and is a display piece for all who enter my home is far better than a Tupperware container of dirt that may or may not show a T.

My concern as what with happened in other hobbies is the fanaticism that has taken some of the reptile community that you MUST keep your animal a certain way or you're a horrible keeper. Maybe that's true for animals slightly higher on the intelligence scale. Or maybe it's just people using their emotions and anthropomorphizing.

 

[YungRasputin]

i think the whole hobby needs turned on its head Hegel style - there is considerable rooms for improvement as our understandings of arachnids continue to grow

for me my recent thread on P. rufilata as well as formerly participating in “the hobby” by talking with peers on AB and in other groups was/has been v illuminating in this respect

i think there is both a) a want for over-simplicity, this whole dudebro mindset of getting a box of dirt, throwing a spider in there and hoping for the best and b) a complete lack of seeing the whole picture of what captivity should or could be eg: people focus on providing the correct terrarium parameters at best and nothing else is considered

eg: in the P. rufilata thread specifically no one was considering the important dynamic between a spider’s den and the greater surroundings that the den is situated in and how this dynamic can be replicated in captivity and *should* be

if the goal is to provide the closest approximation of nature as possible this should be more than just providing the correct terrarium parameters and i think there is all sorts of room for improvement - in this year alone i think I’ve come light years from where I started and I don’t see why other people wouldn’t want to continuously keep pushing, keep innovating, keep thinking outside the box, etc

per point A, i think current trends within “the hobby” engenders certain mindsets - people want über simplicity so they can “sack em and stack em” - it facilitates mass collecting because then you don’t have to worry about how much time advanced, master level husbandry might take when you have 200 spiders

 

[Neonblizzard]

Your enclosures look great, and once their basic needs are met (important, they are living creatures) doing super nice enclosures kinda reminds me of painting warhammer figures...

Some people just have a knack and an eye to make something truly beautiful, whereas others (me) do my best and it still just looks like crap; not a lot of people are good at that kind of thing.

Then there's finding the balance between making it a natural looking environment while still being practical to maintain and do what it needs to do.

 

[YungRasputin]

Your enclosures look great, and once their basic needs are met (important, they are living creatures) doing super nice enclosures kinda reminds me of painting warhammer figures...

Some people just have a knack and an eye to make something truly beautiful, whereas others (me) do my best and it still just looks like crap; not a lot of people are good at that kind of thing.

Then there's finding the balance between making it a natural looking environment while still being practical to maintain and do what it needs to do.

“talent is just a pursued interest, anything that you’re willing to practice, you can do.”-Bob Ross

 

[Craig73]

I consider myself an entry level keeper a few months shy of 2 years, so keep that in mind as far as my comments.

If we’re talking general standards that can be applied across multiple genus/species for the basic foundation of keeping I get adequate info (i.e. substrate types, dls to enclosure height, ventilation, etc.). From those examples it then becomes recommendations based on experience, preference and opinion.

Could general standards be improved, sure. One example that comes to mind is ventilation. Yes, they need it. New keepers may focus on top ventilation, but not necessarily look at gradient ventilation at different levels or placement. Is the standard that ventilation is provided, or is the standard focusing on maximizing efficient air flow/exchange? Not a question to be answered, just an example of how my brain processes.

Species-specific standards will obviously be more complex. Example, one can say larger G. Pulchra should have more moisture in the substrate, where another person will say closer to bone dry. Same can be true with substrate depth for fossorial.

My opinion, standards are outweighed by recommendations and opinions. That is in no way diminishing advice I’ve gotten on the board, it’s worked for me very successfully. I can use info from two more experienced keepers with similar as well as different styles and apply it in a way that works for me.

I‘m inexperienced, put down the torches.

 

[RezonantVoid]

Thank you everyone for the responses so far, I've really enjoyed reading them. From the poll votes so far it seems there's a somewhat even split between satisfaction and a desire for change.

One point I agree with that's been mentioned is the level of elitist care in the reptile hobby, with many "experts" insisting it's their way or the wrong way. That kind of advice is completely counterproductive IMO, I would much prefer to respectively provide the logic behind ideas for going more natural. Generally speaking, I just find my spiders wander around the surface less but wait at the entrance more regularly, fully finish their burrows/lids within 10-48 hours, eat more regularly and probably my favourite part of all is some of them interact with some of the materials placed inside, like sun dried twigs and bark. I was very surprised by how many of my trapdoors and a few of my T's would pick up debris and stick it to the edge of the their burrows!

For anyone curious, that super planted setup is actually for velvet worms, and I'd agree that that one is in no way suitable for a spider. But I thoroughly agree with the points @Dorifto mentioned above, I think perhaps care may in fact be made even easier with things like plants helping to manage temperature and humidity levels to a degree

 

[Tarantuland]

I think that overall it’s pretty good considering many people raise many species to adulthood and beyond. Certain species like seladonia have specific requirements were still learning about. When I had one a year ago, much less was known than now.
To me it’s largely whether people want to actually put forth the effort for good care or not. A lot of people want to reinvent the wheel unfortunately.
Europeans often have prettier enclosures with more live plants, but also frequently keep species more humid than Americans.

 

[Dorifto]

Europeans often have prettier enclosures with more live plants, but also frequently keep species more humid than Americans.

Imho it's a cultural thing, while Americans are more like if one thing works, do not change it, like being more practical, our point of view is more like why it works that way, and how we can achieve it.

In my personal case never told me "do it this way". Tell me "it's done this way because X". That way of thinking makes you to see some things from other perspectives.

EG: I started keeping my pulchra in bone dry coco fiber. It didn't work for me. One the collapses, two it was excessively dry in winter and made my T close the burrow too frequently. So instead of following that advice to the end, as a lot of pelple do, I tried to figure out how to solve it. Added moisture in one corner. Big mistake... I added some plants without searching the correct enclosure... Second big mistake. So decided to stop and to try to figure out what was wrong. Learned about enclosures, humidity, things that keep it stable (plants), and knowing that my goal was a realistic enclosure, it was a pleasure to learn all those things, and even if the consensus was to not to go full bioactive, I knew that it was the best thing for me, and I will never regret that decision. It made me to understand a lot of things, otherwise I would have followed the standard advices that would have taken me to failure.

 

[jrh3]

i think the whole hobby needs turned on its head Hegel style - there is considerable rooms for improvement as our understandings of arachnids continue to grow

for me my recent thread on P. rufilata as well as formerly participating in “the hobby” by talking with peers on AB and in other groups was/has been v illuminating in this respect

i think there is both a) a want for over-simplicity, this whole dudebro mindset of getting a box of dirt, throwing a spider in there and hoping for the best and b) a complete lack of seeing the whole picture of what captivity should or could be eg: people focus on providing the correct terrarium parameters at best and nothing else is considered

eg: in the P. rufilata thread specifically no one was considering the important dynamic between a spider’s den and the greater surroundings that the den is situated in and how this dynamic can be replicated in captivity and *should* be

if the goal is to provide the closest approximation of nature as possible this should be more than just providing the correct terrarium parameters and i think there is all sorts of room for improvement - in this year alone i think I’ve come light years from where I started and I don’t see why other people wouldn’t want to continuously keep pushing, keep innovating, keep thinking outside the box, etc

per point A, i think current trends within “the hobby” engenders certain mindsets - people want über simplicity so they can “sack em and stack em” - it facilitates mass collecting because then you don’t have to worry about how much time advanced, master level husbandry might take when you have 200 spiders

If it isn’t broke, why fix it? There is probably hundreds if not thousands of years of combined experience from keepers to prove that an enclosure with dirt and a hide is sufficient to keep a tarantula healthy and happy. Anything else is purely for the satisfaction of the keeper, extravagant enclosures with live plants, automatic light timers, heavily decorated tanks are for the keepers eye. The tarantula does not care, this has been proven.

 

[YungRasputin]

If it isn’t broke, why fix it? There is probably hundreds if not thousands of years of combined experience from keepers to prove that an enclosure with dirt and a hide is sufficient to keep a tarantula healthy and happy. Anything else is purely for the satisfaction of the keeper, extravagant enclosures with live plants, automatic light timers, heavily decorated tanks are for the keepers eye. The tarantula does not care, this has been proven.

and it could be said that aquaculture is just tank, water and fish

as our knowledge of arachnids evolves and builds upon itself so should husbandry

collective knowledge is indeed important insomuch as something 1 person does could be genuinely innovative in the journey towards better and better care or for that matter someone’s perspective towards providing the most natural of life as possible

that’s just life - it’s always changing and so should we

 

[Neonblizzard]

“talent is just a pursued interest, anything that you’re willing to practice, you can do.”-Bob Ross

I'll send you a video of me singing Whitney houston to see if that holds true

 

[Dorifto]

If it isn’t broke, why fix it? There is probably hundreds if not thousands of years of combined experience from keepers to prove that an enclosure with dirt and a hide is sufficient to keep a tarantula healthy and happy. Anything else is purely for the satisfaction of the keeper, extravagant enclosures with live plants, automatic light timers, heavily decorated tanks are for the keepers eye. The tarantula does not care, this has been proven.

I disagree.

While everyone complains about their pet holes/rocks. I have two pretty active Ts, specially the pulchra.

Instead of focusing on keeping them healthy and alive, I prefer to give them a live, not saying that you are not giving them a live, simply that I want to give them a better one allowing them to interact with their environment. Our way to do the things, it also has been proved by hundreds or thousands of keeper. Simply they are two different ways to see the same thing. One is more practical, other more visually pleasant. One allows you to have hundreds and wait to see if some action happens, the other to enjoy them when they interact with their environment, also it's very pleasant too to see how everything evolves and interacts, from a blooming plant to the smaller isopod or springtail.

Before deciding to go with my vivariums I had the desire to had more, way more Ts, and the basket was pretty high, several hundred euros. After them, that feeling is mostly gone. It doesn't stop me from learning about other future potential Ts, because eventually they will fall in my hands, but for now due to space issues and another little beast, they are at halt, but until then, I'll continue learning and planning their future enclosures.

 

[YungRasputin]

I'll send you a video of me singing Whitney houston to see if that holds true

that’s the neat part - just like with painting you don’t need any natural talent or special qualities to pursue it - anyone can do it