difference between two very similar species of t's...

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
Hi guys...

So, im in a bit of a dilemma... what is the difference between a guatemalan redrump (Brachypelma Sabulosum) and a mexican redrump (Brachypelma vegans) tarantula? If I understand correctly, a guatemalan redrump has a much lighter, almost white area between the legs and its head section, but I ain't really sure.

I will appreciate any help, though excuse my typos if you see any, lol... my phone had a bit of a fall, if you get what I mean...
 
Last edited:

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,342
There are several species of "red rump" tarantulas from Central and South America. Through years of misidentification and cross breeding in the hobby, species lines have become seriously blurred.
Unless you have a wild caught specimen with documentation as to where it was collected, most red rump tarantulas in the hobby are best described as "Hobby red rump". Positive ID on individuals is difficult, at best, and often only possible by a seasoned taxonomist post mortem.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,610
You can't trace the scientific name of the specimen? Or are you inquiring before buying one of these? The Mexican red rump is mostly Brachypelma vagans, but what a Guatemalan red rump is, I have no idea. This is why common names suck..
 

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
The guatemalan redrump is brachypela sabulosum. The normal mexican redrump is brachypelma vegans.

I already have the b.sabulosum and I was just curious about what the difference is between them, visually instead of their origin, lol :D and yeah, common names are too... vague lol

There are several species of "red rump" tarantulas from Central and South America. Through years of misidentification and cross breeding in the hobby, species lines have become seriously blurred.
Unless you have a wild caught specimen with documentation as to where it was collected, most red rump tarantulas in the hobby are best described as "Hobby red rump". Positive ID on individuals is difficult, at best, and often only possible by a seasoned taxonomist post mortem.
You can't trace the scientific name of the specimen? Or are you inquiring before buying one of these? The Mexican red rump is mostly Brachypelma vagans, but what a Guatemalan red rump is, I have no idea. This is why common names suck..
My replies are above.. im just figuring out the quoting system...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,342
Your B sabulosum may or may not be sabulosum. It may just be one of the collective red rumps.
I have what was sold to me as B vagans. Whether it is or not is debatable. I have no documentation as to where her ancestors hailed from. I call her a Hobby vagans and she will never be bred so as not to further muddy the captive red rump waters.
 

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
Your B sabulosum may or may not be sabulosum. It may just be one of the collective red rumps.
I have what was sold to me as B vagans. Whether it is or not is debatable. I have no documentation as to where her ancestors hailed from. I call her a Hobby vagans and she will never be bred so as not to further muddy the captive red rump waters.
I know, but how can I distinguish the two species or three species, considering the Costa-Rican redrump (B.Angustum)? I know there is a way, otherwise they would not have been three different species of tarantula.
I have no desire to call any of my spiders a hobby because I wont call a dog a hobby. They are pets, and I desire to know just what kind of pet I have. Later on I would actually like to breed my spiders too, and I don't want to misinform the people that I sell to.
 

Haksilence

Bad At Titles
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
405
I know, but how can I distinguish the two species or three species, considering the Costa-Rican redrump (B.Angustum)? I know there is a way, otherwise they would not have been three different species of tarantula.
I have no desire to call any of my spiders a hobby because I wont call a dog a hobby. They are pets, and I desire to know just what kind of pet I have. Later on I would actually like to breed my spiders too, and I don't want to misinform the people that I sell to.

Unfortunately this identification won't be possible. As others have said your only chance at a proper identification would be from a professional/experienced taxonomist even then the differences may be so subtle that even they may not be able to offer a proper ID.

Under the almost certainty that it is instead a vagans or hobby hybrid a taxonomical identification will be impossible due to the fact that there is next to no research on the effects on taxonomical charactaristics caused by hybridization
 

WeightedAbyss75

Arachnoangel
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
921
I know, but how can I distinguish the two species or three species, considering the Costa-Rican redrump (B.Angustum)? I know there is a way, otherwise they would not have been three different species of tarantula.
I have no desire to call any of my spiders a hobby because I wont call a dog a hobby. They are pets, and I desire to know just what kind of pet I have. Later on I would actually like to breed my spiders too, and I don't want to misinform the people that I sell to.
Like others siad, the difference in some can only be found after the T dies and you can maneuver and dissect it... not much difference between them all, they all look very similar and need similar care. Sometimes, there isn't much you can do as a definite sign of which. Good luck :D
 

cold blood

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
11,889
I see. Ah well, so it is just best to settle with "it is just a redrump" tarantula?
I would still call and label it as sabulosum, and would only breed it with another labeled (reliably) as such. Its the best thing you can do.

Because I have just gotten into tarantulas a week ago, I didnt think it mattered.
Oh, it matters, its one of the biggest things in the hobby that matters most...always know the scientific names before you buy or you will never know exactly what you have.

The differences between the 2 species in question is very subtle.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,610
I know, but how can I distinguish the two species or three species, considering the Costa-Rican redrump (B.Angustum)? I know there is a way, otherwise they would not have been three different species of tarantula.
I have no desire to call any of my spiders a hobby because I wont call a dog a hobby. They are pets, and I desire to know just what kind of pet I have. Later on I would actually like to breed my spiders too, and I don't want to misinform the people that I sell to.
It's not hobby as in hobby how you describe it.
There really are 'hobby-forms' in the Brachypelma genus, vagans/sabulosum being two of them. They are called hobby form because there is no way to trace their original lineage to either one of these species. Hybridization unfortunately muddled those species up, because people thought they were the same, or that it didn't matter which was paired to which, as long as it had a red rump.
Another hobby form in this genus is B.albopilosum 'pube hair', since there is a 'true form' discovered of this species which kept the curly long setae, as opposed to the B.albopilosum that's been in the hobby for so long.
It is a mess, and people should not breed or sell if they are unsure of species/lineage.
 

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
Like others siad, the difference in some can only be found after the T dies and you can maneuver and dissect it... not much difference between them all, they all look very similar and need similar care. Sometimes, there isn't much you can do as a definite sign of which. Good luck :D
well... this is... vvveerrry dissapointing... I guess I now know why there are so many hybrids of redrumps: no one ever did any research on them, lol.
 

viper69

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
11,548
The guatemalan redrump is brachypela sabulosum. The normal mexican redrump is brachypelma vegans.

I already have the b.sabulosum and I was just curious about what the difference is between them, visually instead of their origin, lol :D and yeah, common names are too... vague lol

There are no vegans, it's vagans.

Vegan is a type of eating life-style, not a latin name for a T :D
 

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
I would still call and label it as sabulosum, and would only breed it with another labeled (reliably) as such. Its the best thing you can do.



Oh, it matters, its one of the biggest things in the hobby that matters most...always know the scientific names before you buy or you will never know exactly what you have.

The differences between the 2 species in question is very subtle.
... I mean, I didn't think it mattered in the forum. I was under the impression that the common names would be as the name says, more commonly used.

There are no vegans, it's vagans.

Vegan is a type of eating life-style, not a latin name for a T :D
Lol, I just noticed, thanks :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

viper69

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
11,548
... I mean, I didn't think it mattered in the forum. I was under the impression that the common names would be as the name says, more commonly used.
One would think.... We try to use the scientific names because there is too much confusion w/common names. For example, Mexican Red Leg, that could fit about 5 different unique species from Mexico.

Also your common name, may not be the same as mine.

Chilean Flame
Chilean Fire

BOTH are the same T, NOT very helpful at all.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,610
... I mean, I didn't think it mattered in the forum. I was under the impression that the common names would be as the name says, more commonly used.
The trouble with common names is that every continent, country, or even pet stores uses their own, or invent new ones as they go. Also, common names can be used for different species. A white striped birdeater could be anything from A.geniculata to Nhandu chromatus. Another example is Pink Toe Tarantula, usually meant for Avicularia genus, but lots of species in that genus has pink toes..
 

theriumbra

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
13
The trouble with common names is that every continent, country, or even pet stores uses their own, or invent new ones as they go. Also, common names can be used for different species. A white striped birdeater could be anything from A.geniculata to Nhandu chromatus.
True, true. well, in the future I will refer to them by their scientific names

One would think.... We try to use the scientific names because there is too much confusion w/common names. For example, Mexican Red Leg, that could fit about 5 different unique species from Mexico.

Also your common name, may not be the same as mine.

Chilean Flame
Chilean Fire

BOTH are the same T, NOT very helpful at all.
You make a fair point O_O
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Marijan2

Arachnobaron
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
505
Well, technically both vagans and sabulosum should be the same species, since they can produce viable offspring... It would be taxonomically correct to differentiate them as subspecies
 
Top