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Desert Brown Recluse

Discussion in 'Other Spiders & Arachnids' started by Irene B. Smithi, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Venom

    Venom Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Arachnoculture, which was the title of a recent magazine published by an AB member, is the keeping, rearing, studying, and reproducing of arachnids. cf: horticulture, herpetoculture, agriculture.

    Well, according to my calculator, 1.5% breaks down to 1/ 66.7 bites being fatal. That beats the fatality rate from Agkistrodon contortrix "copperhead" pitvipers ( which I dare say you'd avoid being bitten by...) . 13% breaks down to 1/ 7.7 bites causing systemic effects. Those are serious odds.

    And remember, there is no antivenom to counter-act these stats, unlike Latrodectus which has an age-averaged fatality rate of 4-6% by species, but kills almost no one, due to antivenom. The 1/66.7 stat STANDS as it is, with no modification from treatment options, because there is no antivenom. Thus, the odds of actually dying from L.laeta in a country with good medical care, are actually higher than the odds of dying from an L. mactans bite.

    Fatality percentages are misleading. Low numbers, even single digit percentages, still represent a very significant risk factor. Turn on your thinking cap: 1% is 1 in a 100. 2% is 1 / 50. 3% is 1 / 33. 4% is 1 /25, and 5% is 1 / 20. Would you take a risk even on a 1 / 50 chance of dying?? I wouldn't! 1 / 66.7 is a higher fatality risk than most diseases we take pains to avoid. And it has less recourse to treatment than most infectious diseases.

    Bottom line: you need to stop negating the risk to life/ limb from Loxo bites. The bite itself is easy to avoid. But once it has occurred, IT IS SERIOUS. So just take it seriously from the beginning, and stop telling people they "aren't that bad" !! You're on the wrong side of the facts here!
  2. buthus

    buthus Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Everytime we meet up with Peanut, i always want to pet the bitch, but she frightens the heck out of me. ...tear ya to bits I believe she could/would. I just dont think its safe to handle Peanut.
  3. What

    What Arachnoprince

    Stats for L. laeta/intermedia != stats for all Loxosceles across the board.

    I would also like to point out that those are just the bites that were "expert-confirmed", not the entire number of bites reported or something that takes into account the bites that were NOT reported. So, out of those 267 ppl, there was a 1.5% death rate. Surprising? Yes. Something to put lots of stock into when dealing with North American Loxosceles? Not really.
  4. cacoseraph

    cacoseraph ArachnoGod Old Timer

    ha, L. laeta is supposed to have more potent venom than reclusa and is about twice as long... which means it is 8 times as big... which means comparing their bites to reclusa is like comparing a pitbull's bite to a chihuahua's

    for american lox it shakes down to this: even with gross, rampant over diagnosing of the bites (complete with diagnoses FAR outside of range, without ever seeing the spider, and letting patients self diagnose) they still aren't that big of a deal. if just positively id'ed bites were counted the engendered would be laughable
  5. So, does all this mean that if by chance you saw one bite you, and know for sure that it was a desert brown recluse, the bite could be very serious, but the odds of it biting a extremely low. Am I understanding you all correctly.
    (I'm not referring to pesticides or anything of the like in this question, just the spider)

    Thank you
  6. What

    What Arachnoprince

    No, the desert recluse spiders(the spiders near you, L. deserta) are not known to be medically significant, barring allergic reactions.
  7. thank you.... One more question, if allergic, could it cause AS? Is the bite for a non allergic person more significant medically then a black widow??
    Thank you

  8. pandinus

    pandinus Arachnoking Old Timer

    think of it this way orchid. your desert recluses are not nearly as dangerous as the standard brown recluse, they are a different and much less dangerous species. if you saw one the chances are ver low of you coming into close enough contact for it to bite you. if you defy the odds and do get close enough, they are docile enough that the odds of one actually biting you are insanely low. on top of that, only about 1.5% of REGULAR brown recluse bites lead to anything more than a little scabbing and tenderness, so the chances of a DESERT recluse bite producing a bad reaction are ridiculously low. pretty much you would have to defy the odds multiple times for these spiders to be anything dangerous at all.

  9. :D
    Thank you, maybe for once I'll sleep good. I've lost a lot of sleep since finding these little monsters...
    thank you

  10. pandinus

    pandinus Arachnoking Old Timer

  11. Venom

    Venom Arachnoprince Old Timer

    L. deserta is a recluse of minor significance. It's one of the least toxic of the genus. A bite would, at most, present a bad sore. Even that much is virtually unheard of, however. Still, they are a toxic spider, and should be taken seriously.

    By AS, I take you to mean anaphylactic shock? If so, that is a possibility. I have never heard of it happening from recluse envenomation, but the spider's venom IS protein-based, so an immune response is not impossible. Being allergic to bees does NOT equal being allergic to spiders. A bite from L. deserta, in a non-allergic person, doesn't hold a candle to the threat posed by a bite from a black widow spider.

    Other recluses are far more dangerous, as this one is very much on the shallow end of the pool as far as Loxosceles "recluse" spiders go. BUT, as it IS a Loxo, its venom is presumed to contain *some* level of sphingomyelinase-D, the toxic compound that causes the necrosis and other effects. It is thought to be less concentrated in this species, and is not injected in large amounts, BUT, it makes the venom still toxic, and every individual bite is different. Don't take your safety for granted; they're still toxic and potentially harmful.

    But they are nowhere near the L. reclusa and L. Laeta toxicity. Does that help?
  12. buthus

    buthus Arachnoprince Old Timer

    But wait a minute ...maybe, they ARE nasty, deadly monsters...just waiting for the signal ...TO ATTACK! eh? :eek: :?

    Orchid, the Loxosceles ive come across in Vegas have all been very small compared to L.deserta and others ive come across. Im sure theyve been properly IDd, but i have not come across that info. I have come across something a while back that claims L.reclusa proper have been found in Vegas. This would not surprise me considering how much travel and equipment comes into that city. The smallish ones that I find ...I do think they are the natives though. Anywho ...love to see some pics of one or two of the largest that you can conjure up from your yard ...against a coin or something for quick size reference.
    Most of my collecting has been in an area of housing development in NVegas... Craig Rd and around that area.
  13. buthus

    buthus Arachnoprince Old Timer

    What does that mean exactly? "taken seriously"? Im just curious ...lets say someone IDs a huge population within their yard ...what would be Venom's recommendation?
    And havent we come full circle here? Are you not saying they are virtually harmless? Wasnt I saying that? :duh?
  14. If I can get the guts up to catch one I will...:wall: :wall: :wall: :eek: :eek: :eek: !!

    O, yeah, and their evil alright, EVIL I TELL YOU, EVIL!!!!! (and roaches, might as well through them in with that statement!!!):evil: :evil:

  15. Venom

    Venom Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Exterminate. They're not an acceptable house/ yard spider.

    No. YOU asserted that NO Loxosceles spp. were to be taken seriously.

    You said that you highly doubted that ANY Loxo could kill.

    My point was that Loxosceles as a genus is highly toxic, and definitely dangerous, with a history of the worst species regularly causing fatalities--a POSSIBILITY which extends to our native L. reclusa.

    Loxosceles is a highly varied genus, so you just can't say "recluse spiders are harmless." Even L. deserta is NOT harmless--just like L. geometricus is NOT "harmless," it is simply much LESS harmFUL than its relatives. I would not allow myself to be bitten by even an L. deserta--they are still a toxic spider, and you never know.

    L. deserta is no L. reclusa, and L. reclusa is no L. laeta. But NONE of them are your garden-variety Araneus diadematus--they are ALL members of a toxic genus, and should be considered medically significant at the very least ( downright dangerous/ deadly for some of the worse species ).

    Does that make sense now?
  16. I got pest control due to having scorpions in my house. He told me that they were just as dangerous as the other recluse.... But I'd like to believe that their not as bad as their relatives. Still scared of them, and all this does not change that I knew a kid in high school that died after being bite. It does however help me sleep at night knowing that I don't have the really really nasty ones you see with those gaping wounds and so forth.

    Plus I've learned a lot about the wounds and what makes them so big and dangerous. My father knew a lady who got bite and had a huge gaping wound that took over ten months to heal.... But after all that I've read, I can see how an infection may have been the culprit, not just the spider...

    So, lots of good info, and I do want to thank everyone for their input and research.

  17. pandinus

    pandinus Arachnoking Old Timer

    well of course he wants to make them sound as bad as he can. if you think they are less of a threat you have less of a reason to hire him. always try and get an unbiased opinion... like ours:wicked:

  18. Yeah, my husband asked if we should keep him, I told him about the stuff on this board... But just a few days ago I found one UNDER my foot in my kitchen!!!! Almost stepped on it!!! So we'll keep him, but not rely on him for good answers to my bug questions, probably just bugged him with them anyways :D (I made a funny!!)

    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  19. loxoscelesfear

    loxoscelesfear Arachnoprince Old Timer

    All species of Loxosceles should be treated w/ respect.
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