Cyriopagopus Nightmare

Terrena Laxamentum

Arachnoknight
Joined
Nov 18, 2017
Messages
187
The "Nightmare" in the title refers to their taxonomy. As everyone here knows, we get in a species from Vietnam, which I believe to be vonwirthi even though they come in as paganus. I also heard that minax and vonwirthi are possibly synonymous, and that minax can be told by the presence of spines on the patella, which is one of the reasons sp. "Big Black" isn't minax. Basically my question is can anyone help me key my personal one out? And if so, teach me how? Because I do want to get a male for her and I definitely want to make sure that the male is the same animal as her.
 

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Liquifin

Arachnoking
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If you bought any WC specimens recently it's most likely C. vonwirthi as there was an import of them some time ago and still many specimens floating around the market. I took my chance and picked up my male for a very good deal since some seller was downsizing their stock for animals. As far as taxonomy goes, they're a mess and I'm not too well versed with them in general. Someone needs to update them, but at the moment there's not too much to go on.



IMG_2076.JPG
 

AphonopelmaTX

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The "Nightmare" in the title refers to their taxonomy. As everyone here knows, we get in a species from Vietnam, which I believe to be vonwirthi even though they come in as paganus. I also heard that minax and vonwirthi are possibly synonymous, and that minax can be told by the presence of spines on the patella, which is one of the reasons sp. "Big Black" isn't minax. Basically my question is can anyone help me key my personal one out? And if so, teach me how? Because I do want to get a male for her and I definitely want to make sure that the male is the same animal as her.
To key a spider out means to use the published descriptions, or dichotomous keys when available, to identify it to a particular taxonomic rank (i.e family, subfamily, genus, or species). Unfortunately, the published descriptions of Cyriopagopus minax and C. vonwirthi are so poor that they do not lead anyone to make a confident identification to species. So no, no one will be able to help you key your tarantula to the species rank simply because there is no published key to do so.

I too have heard, and have a photograph of, spines on the patella of legs 3 and 4 as being the diagnostic character of C. minax, but since that information is not published in a paper where such a character occurs in any other species it shouldn't be used for a diagnosis to species. The source of the information maybe reliable, but without knowing if the same thing occurs on any other species in the genus Cyriopagopus, it should not be considered the only way to diagnose C. minax. It was in the paper von Wirth & Striffler (2005) that speculated that C. vonwirthi was a synonym of C. minax, but it makes no mention of why. If spines on the patella of legs 3 and 4 is diagnostic for C. minax, then they should also appear on C. vonwirthi. To my knowledge, no one who has a tarantula they consider C. vonwirthi has checked and published their findings in some way.

If you need instruction on how to key tarantulas to a taxonomic rank up to species, then you will need to start with the basics and learn how to identify spiders in general. The process is the exact same for tarantulas, with the exception being the tools you use due to their enormous size compared to most other spiders. For example, to examine the spermathecae of a non-tarantula spider you might need mount it to a glass slide and use a compound microscope for examination because it will be nearly microscopic. For tarantulas, the spermathecae can be easily observed in a small container with a stereo microscope at a low magnification. Of course the anatomy you will be examining will be different as well, but good description papers define and elaborate on what to look at.

To get you started on how to identify spiders, check out the following books. You will notice 2 of them are British and as such some translation might be needed for the terms used for tools and materials. Such as the use of "surgical spirit" and "spirit". "Surgical spirit" is isopropyl alcohol you can find in any drug store and "spirit" is ethanol which you can find in liquor stores as "neutral grain alcohol" sometimes sold under the brand name Everclear. Also, none of these books are free so some monetary investment is needed. The process of learning how to identify, or key, a spider is a huge topic that can't be covered on an internet forum.

I own, and have read, all three of these books and they are a good starting place to learn how to identify spiders properly.

Spiders of North America - An Identification Manual 2nd Edition

Arachnologists' Handbook. [British Arachnological Society]

Baboon Spiders Tarantulas of Africa & the Middle East by Andrew Smith
 

Teds ts and Inverts

Arachnobaron
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
504
The "Nightmare" in the title refers to their taxonomy. As everyone here knows, we get in a species from Vietnam, which I believe to be vonwirthi even though they come in as paganus. I also heard that minax and vonwirthi are possibly synonymous, and that minax can be told by the presence of spines on the patella, which is one of the reasons sp. "Big Black" isn't minax. Basically my question is can anyone help me key my personal one out? And if so, teach me how? Because I do want to get a male for her and I definitely want to make sure that the male is the same animal as her.
Yours is definitely C. vonwirthi. Most Ts that are sold as C. paganus are either C. vonwirthi or C. minax. I’ve found that the best way to distinguish C. vonwirthi from C. minax and C. sp. “Big Black” are the stripes on the patella.

For a visual comparison, here’s my 3” Female C. vonwirthi:
F15258DF-D03C-42B8-B1F6-E6623DF0472F.jpeg

And here’s my 5.75”-6.25” Female C. minax:
4A27912E-9FBE-4C08-B5BB-6C2BCE778316.jpeg

As you can see, C. vonwirthi has stripes on the patella. It is worth adding that these stripes begin to fade as they age, but they’re still visible. C. minax also has stripes on the patella, but they’re barely visible, unless you look closely.

Another way to tell them apart is by looking closely at the abdomen. On the C. vonwirthi, the base color of the abdomen is normally a light-brown color. On the C. minax, the base color of the abdomen is usually a bit darker.

C. minax:
B6CF5297-B2AA-44DC-81AA-1237A053D407.jpeg

A6C8F32E-1330-4DCA-AD6E-261CEF6B52A3.jpeg

Under the right lighting, the abdominal stripes of C. minax appear to fade. But because the abdomen of C. vonwirthi has a lighter base color, the abdominal stripes are prevalent at almost any angle.

C. vonwirthi:
782DB496-1BE0-48AC-83C1-692B8DC633EB.jpeg

That’s how I can tell the two apart. When my C. vonwirthi matures, I’ll try to make a thread on this....
 
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Terrena Laxamentum

Arachnoknight
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Does anyone know if Cyriopagopus minax and Sp. "Big Black" are the same animal? If not, does anyone know the locality of Sp. "Big Black"?
 

Liquifin

Arachnoking
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Does anyone know if Cyriopagopus minax and Sp. "Big Black" are the same animal? If not, does anyone know the locality of Sp. "Big Black"?
No one is too sure about "C. sp. Big Black". Because they come from the same range as C. minax, C. vonwirthi, and whatever else is within the Thailand, Laos, and Vietnam range. No one is too sure of the exact location of collection, so locality is a mystery. WC imports of what people say about them is still kind of confusing. I would treat them as different species for now. But who knows if they're the same species or not?
 
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Terrena Laxamentum

Arachnoknight
Joined
Nov 18, 2017
Messages
187
No one is too sure about "C. sp. Big Black". Because they come from the same range as C. minax, C. vonwirthi, and whatever else is within the Thailand, Laos, and Vietnam. No one is too sure of the exact location of collection, so locality is a mystery. WC imports of what people say about them is still kind of confusing. I would treat them as different species for now. But who knows if they're the same species or not?
Figures, sucks because they do look different than the typical minax.
 
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