Cross Breed.....Freak or Not opinions

Karmashadowsh

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Hello all....Today i purchased a few(around 10) cross bread(accidental) due to a spacer between 2 living places being avoided.a Ceratogyras Brachycephalus/Ceratogyras Bechuanicus..they are beautifull Great Horn/Curve Horn mixs...Hear is a pic of one of the 3 im keeping for myself.give me your opinion on the situation,i heared it was frowned on but looking at the specimen i dont see how.
 
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BigBryan

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i to would wonder why they are frowned upon... the only reason i see is that people might start breeding thinking they are pure and selling them
 

DanCameron

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It is frowned upon mostly because our culture has not caught up to our technology. This is always the case. Doctor's and scientists were heavily persecuted for digging up dead bodies to examine them in the past. Hey, if you can get a cross-breed, that's awesome. I just wouldn't release it in the wild. We did that with bees (albiet it on accident) and look where it got us.
 

Karmashadowsh

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Why ?

I dont see why someone would do that when i mean think of it...i cant imagine what this guy is gonna look like when it gets juvie/mature,but from just the colors at a sling im impressed and happy to say its a cross bread....
 

Karmashadowsh

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<edit>

No,not planned for the wild...<EDIT>....i just say if we cross breed PEOPLE...black/whites or mexican/asian,what the hell ever....why cant a species due it..i mean people now a days dont frown on such things so why in a species that has been around longer then we have should it be frowned upon?i fail to understand it...
 
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Mistwalker

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Humans are all the same species. He was talking about hybridizing two species.

Now it could be that our taxonomy is off, and they are really just breeds in the same species (like different dog breeds are all the same species).

The way to tell is if you can breed the offspring. If they can produce fertile offspring, they're the same species, and our recording of them taxonomically is incorrect.

Of course, they can be in between, and sometimes produce fertile offspring and sometimes not, as well. In that case it's a grey area.
 

spiDERanged

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There are many discussions relating to this topic both on the internet and in publications. So what species is it that you have now exactly...? I surely wouldnt want to get one of those which was accidentally labeled incorrectly. You can keep your mule... no thanks.
 
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Karmashadowsh

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the wait

thanks for the links,interesting stuff.the breeding was a mistake and i cant wait till they get bigger,ill be posting new pics within the weeks/months to keep anyone interested informed....these are not going for sale and are for me and my roomate to see if they live and grow normaly and to see if there are different color patterns or anything of the abnormal
 

common spider

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I see nothing wrong with it.I too would like to see what they look like when they get bigger.
 

GoTerps

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I feel whoever you purchased those spiders from should NEVER have sold them to the public. I know you say YOUR specimens are staying with you, but what about the rest?

I would never purchase anything from this individual.

There are constructive reasons why certain people may choose to cross-breed. But the slings should not be openly distributed like this...

In this case, since one of the parents was a "brachycephalus"... there may very well be 3 different species involved here.
 

AfterTheAsylum

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Does anyone else here doubt that the breeding was a mistake? Adult female on the left, adult male on the right. I could understand that it happened... I just kinda don't believe it.

Anyway cross-breeding may lead to infertility and less coloration. Just update everyone is a year so we can see how the Toxic Avenger is doing.
 

FryLock

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GoTerps said:
I feel whoever you purchased those spiders from should NEVER have sold them to the public. I know you say YOUR specimens are staying with you, but what about the rest?
These were my thoughts too Eric, and if the males from this pairing have single SAB's and back faceing horns (or no horn) then they could be mistaken for C.bech male's if misslabed at sometime :mad:.
 

Karmashadowsh

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He dident *Sell* them to me....actually i took them in on an adoptionagreement that i would house them and try to keep them alive for as long as possable with good care and feadings.i wasent one to pass up the opportunity so i took them in,rehoused all of them and feading started last night..Insulting or Looking down on someone for this is rediculious.the ones i dont keep im sure will be given to someone who will appreciate the fact of what it is...there is no lieing or bull crap hear so dont bother with the *i think so and so* im not on hear for that...and this thread is not for that either..what lives and isent given away to someone will be kept by me....yea so if you dident know i DONT sell Ts nor do i plan on it in the future,im a collector.
 

AfterTheAsylum

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Well, you can intend to not set a house on fire when you light a match... but it can happen. These Ts may, and probably, make it to someone who doesn't know any better. Eventually it will be stamped out, but there can be a ripple effect. That is what needs to be understood.

Of course you wanted this to be a happy and "look at my cross-bred T" thread, but it can't always be the case. Sort of like I said above... you can light a thousand matches, it just takes one to burn you.

T.S.
 

phil

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Karmashadowsh
Hello all....Today i purchased a few(around 10) cross bread(accidental) due to a spacer between 2 living places being avoided.a Ceratogyras Brachycephalus/Ceratogyras Bechuanicus..they are beautifull Great Horn/Curve Horn mixs...Hear is a pic of one of the 3 im keeping for myself.give me your opinion on the situation,i heared it was frowned on but looking at the specimen i dont see how.
Karmashadowsh
He dident *Sell* them to me....actually i took them in on an adoptionagreement that i would house them and try to keep them alive for as long as possable
Make you mind up, first you purchased them, and then you did'nt :? I certainly frown upon this as Ceratogyrus are among my favourite genera, it's not the X breeding it's self, but the distribution of the hybrid slings, this can have very negative future repocutions throughout the Ceratogyrus keepers/ breeders in the U.S, although some keepers are sensible and will keep these hybrids for personal observation only, there will be others whome, when the males mature will put these out on breeding loan / sell as the Ceratogyrus sp it most resembles, thus entering dirty genes into the hobby gene pool of true Ceratogyrus species. if i were in the states now and did not have sufficiant stock to breed my C.bechuanicus and C."brachycephalus" i would clear all my stock in the fear of having my stock contaminated from hybrid males in the future :embarrassed: :wall:
 

Brian S

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Karmashadowsh said:
No,not planned for the wild...<EDIT>....i just say if we cross breed PEOPLE...black/whites or mexican/asian,what the hell ever....why cant a species due it..i mean people now a days dont frown on such things so why in a species that has been around longer then we have should it be frowned upon?i fail to understand it...
People and spiders are 2 totally different things. It doesnt matter if you are black, white or whatever we are all the same species whereas these tarantulas are a different story. Please for God's sake dont try to breed these things with ANYTHING and tell the yo yo you got them from the same thing. It has been speculated already that "C brachycephalus" in our hobby is a cross bred spider already. You can look at pics of them in the wild and they have a much larger "horn" than our captives. We dont need dirty genes in our spiders.
 

MindUtopia

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I think the problem - well besides the infertility issue - is that for some people having tarantulas is just a "pet thing" and if they look or act "cool" than they're happy. That's fine, but for others of us, the interest is also scientific and that requires as much as possible keeping described species lines pure. There are enough problems with people collecting and mislabeling specimens and people IDing on sight and re-selling mislabeling T's that we owe it to the hobby to not go out of our way to make the situation even more complicated. How would you feel if you spent years raising several T's to maturity only to find out that they are infertile and your breeding project falls apart because someone sold you a hybrid either advertantly or inadvertantly? Or what if you spent a lot of money on say a P. metallica only to have it mature as some plain brown infertile P. regalis cross? These things are certainly possibilities unless the stigma against hybridization remains. Also, while your situation was perhaps accidental, most cases of cross-breeding are intentional because people think its "cool". In my opinion, something being cool is never good enough excuse when it comes to tarantulas, but science and the health of your T's should take precedence. There is no guarantee that hybrids will not grow up to have serious health problems. Also, while it's admirable to say that you plan to keep these ten forever, whether that actually happens is never guaranteed, even though that is generally given as an explanation for why hybridization is okay. Some species can live 25-30 years and the prospect of say a fifteen year old kid who thinks it would be cool to cross-breed to have the maturity and dedication to care for a hundred or more T's from this one sac for rest of their lives is just not realistic. So that's why in general most serious tarantula keepers frown about crossbreeding. You can see all the problems it can cause.
 

Nate

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Wow, what luck my single post can be put in two different threads. :D

Nate said:
I’m not a genetics expert so you’ll have to excuse me.

It is no different then the current state of dog breeds. The current selection of species isn’t 100% what nature started with. Man had more involvement with it then nature. I *think* most of the current tarantula species we have are from natural selection and crossbreeding then man imposing breeding which of course is changing as the hobby grows.

Another imposing force is Genetic Drift (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html) which many hobbyist breeders may over look which cannot be simply avoided by number crunching and a punnet square. Setting up rodent breeding colonies for work this is an issue we have always had to deal with regardless if we are breeding hybrid rodents or not. Only way to minimize it is to start a brand new colony from an unrelated source, maintain a generation cap (11 generations is *our* max) and PCR analysis for every individual prior to any pairing.

The analysis equipment is becoming affordable and many breeders are having access to an untapped resource that only the scientific community had access to. This can be negative and positive at the same time. Sure, dog breeders could start to correct illness they start to begin with such as hip dysplasia but they can also take breeding for physical appearance to entire new level weakening breeds even further. As the tarantula hobby grows and wild supply dwindles I see the same fate for tarantulas (and exotic animals in general).

So back to your question, yes they did but you haven’t seen anything yet until we get a hold of it further and screw it all up.
An increase in genetic deformities will occur at some point!
 
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Camberwell

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Hi there,

sorry if this is too off topic, but i think the principal is quite similar...

i dont agree with cross breeding not nesacerily because it might leek into the main stream supply and dirty the gene pool, but because its just not right IMO.

i dont understand tho how inbreeding is ok, in another thread about pokies i think, inbreeding obviously goes on, but i thought the idea behind genes and dna was that they are meant to mixed (between the same species obviously). I mean in this thread we talk about how the genes could be dirtied and yet in another we talk about inbreeding and no new genes being added to the pool, i personaly wouldn't want an inbred spider to be leeked into the main stream, as i personaly beleive you will get deformation or other affects from inbreeding aswell.

I did have it all thought out before writing this, but now i'm not sure if got my point over correctly, but here goes

Camberwell
 
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