Could you help me sex this immature black widow (Latrodectus hesperus)?

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

In the warmth of fall, my mother's patio was infested with itty-bitty black widow spiderlings and she (understandably) wanted to get rid of them. Her first attempt failed, so I captured one of the spiderlings and decided to raise it. My mother assures me she doused its web with poison, but "Doug" lives and seems to be none the worse for wear. The earliest picture I have of him is in his web on the patio on the 27th of September. At that point, the spiderling had molted at least twice: once in the egg sac (or so I've read) and once in "his" current web. "Doug" molted again fairly recently and once more yesterday, so "he" is in "his" fifth instar (at least). In my opinion, "Doug" should have his emboli at this size, but there's no sign of them.

I thought "Doug" was growing too slowly to be a female, but the spider in question has had a growth spurt. It is getting darker in color and although it is now about the size of an adult male (perhaps bigger), I see no evidence of emboli. I've been curious about black widows, so I have many photos of spiderlings and mature males and females. I'm not sure how many pics I'm allowed to share on this forum, so I'll post three: 1) a picture of a mature male black widow next to a penny 2) a picture of "Doug" next to a penny after his molt and 3) one more pic of "Doug" after yesterday's molt. He or she is nearly large enough to move to a proper enclosure. I have to be sure the spider can't fit through the ventilation holes or access door.

Male Black Widow Next to a Penny ("I has a money. You touch; I bite):



"Doug" Next to a Penny ("his" legs are tucked in, but I'd say he's close in size to the above male, maybe bigger). It's not as good a picture. I apologize in advance:



Let's try for one more:



I think Doug is a dudette. Why? 1) same size or larger than the fully-mature male above, 2) no sign of emboli, 3) seems to be getting darker with each molt and 4) has a fairly well-defined hourglass that is reddish, 4) No lighter longitudinal stripe bifurcating the ventral cephalothorax.

If "Doug" isn't a dude, what would you recommend as an enclosure as soon as she is large enough she won't fit through ventilation holes? Black widows can't climb plastic or glass, so she will need nesting material.

Those of you who have raised multiple black widow spiderlings: What do you think? Is this a male or female black widow?

 

[The Snark]

@darkness975

 

[darkness975]

In the warmth of fall, my mother's patio was infested with itty-bitty black widow spiderlings and she (understandably) wanted to get rid of them. Her first attempt failed, so I captured one of the spiderlings and decided to raise it. My mother assures me she doused its web with poison, but "Doug" lives and seems to be none the worse for wear. The earliest picture I have of him is in his web on the patio on the 27th of September. At that point, the spiderling had molted at least twice: once in the egg sac (or so I've read) and once in "his" current web. "Doug" molted again fairly recently and once more yesterday, so "he" is in "his" fifth instar (at least). In my opinion, "Doug" should have his emboli at this size, but there's no sign of them.

I thought "Doug" was growing too slowly to be a female, but the spider in question has had a growth spurt. It is getting darker in color and although it is now about the size of an adult male (perhaps bigger), I see no evidence of emboli. I've been curious about black widows, so I have many photos of spiderlings and mature males and females. I'm not sure how many pics I'm allowed to share on this forum, so I'll post three: 1) a picture of a mature male black widow next to a penny 2) a picture of "Doug" next to a penny after his molt and 3) one more pic of "Doug" after yesterday's molt. He or she is nearly large enough to move to a proper enclosure. I have to be sure the spider can't fit through the ventilation holes or access door.

Male Black Widow Next to a Penny ("I has a money. You touch; I bite):

View attachment 408503

"Doug" Next to a Penny ("his" legs are tucked in, but I'd say he's close in size to the above male, maybe bigger). It's not as good a picture. I apologize in advance:

View attachment 408504

Let's try for one more:

View attachment 408505

I think Doug is a dudette. Why? 1) same size or larger than the fully-mature male above, 2) no sign of emboli, 3) seems to be getting darker with each molt and 4) has a fairly well-defined hourglass that is reddish, 4) No lighter longitudinal stripe bifurcating the ventral cephalothorax.

If "Doug" isn't a dude, what would you recommend as an enclosure as soon as she is large enough she won't fit through ventilation holes? Black widows can't climb plastic or glass, so she will need nesting material.

Those of you who have raised multiple black widow spiderlings: What do you think? Is this a male or female black widow?

You can share as many of your own images as you'd like.

Honestly based on the pictures you shared so far and your location yours looks like a female L. geometricus (brown widow). Same care as a black widow but they're an invasive species that's displacing the native black widows so I don't care for them much.

Care is basically the same. Set up your Latrodectus like this. The key is to ensure the webbing anchor points are only half way up so they are 90% unlikely to web all the way to the top. I say 90% because some of mine still manage to do it so always be vigilant. The plants in each enclosure are for their hideaway and I spritz a little water every couple weeks for them to drink.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

First of all, I love your setups. Very nice. What kind of bins are those? Keeping the webs low would keep falls from injuring the spiders. At the very least, it would help.

Unfortunately, I lost my last black widow in the night after she ate a cricket earlier that day. I'm not sure if she fell and then died or died and then fell. I guess it doesn't matter. She was too fat. I feel a bit guilty about that and want to make sure this widow gets a safer setup. I plan on reducing the number of feedings to keep her thinner, as well. At this point, even pinhead crickets are a pretty good-sized meal. I'd like to find something between Drosophila melanogaster fruit flies and pinhead crickets so she doesn't get too fat after a feeding. Maybe I should look into Drosophila hydei? I have a baby jumper that should graduate to that species in a few months, anyway.

As for her being a brown widow, it's highly unlikely. There are no reports of invasive brown widows anywhere near my area of California. They tend to like warm climates. They do well in Southern California, but I think it's too cold for them here (at least for now). If it is a brown widow, it would be the first documented case in our area. I've never seen a brown widow or spiky brown widow egg sacs. All brown-colored female widows I've observed have turned into shiny black widows with top-heavy rather than bottom-heavy hourglasses.

Here are a couple of sites on identifying brown widows. You can see that "Doug" fits the profile of an immature black widow. "His" hourglass hasn't turned completely red yet, but it's the right shape.

Brown Widow Spider | Center for Invasive Species Research (ucr.edu)
How to identify Brown Widow Spiders | Center for Invasive Species Research (ucr.edu)

My last female black widow came from the same patio as my current widow. She was about the same size as my current widow when I first found her, and she was still brown. I told my mother I wanted to rescue her and asked her not to spray. I didn't have the necessary gear with me to capture her safely, so I went home. In the meantime, I got sick. It was a while before I returned to capture the widow. By then she had molted and grown, but still wasn't full size. She was, however, completely black. The hourglass and general configuration were that of a typical Latrodectus hesperus, which are ubiquitous where I live. My avatar is that of one of our local widows. Her name is Ungoliath and she lives (lived?) on a trail about five miles from my mother's patio. If she's still alive, I'll be visiting her in the spring.

I've observed many black widows turn from brown to black. Since brown widows vary so widely in color, it can sometimes be difficult to identify them, but I'm aware of the differences. The spiky egg sacs would have given them away. Every female widow I've observed (tons) has started out brown, turned black and laid white, round egg sacs.

If "Doug" does turn out to be female, I'll post a picture of her when she turns black...or if I'm wrong, when she stays brown.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Smoking pot for me is like driving with the parking brake on.
@darkness975

If, when you drop a buttered piece of bread, it always lands buttered-side down...and if a cat always lands on its feet, what happens when you drop a cat with a buttered piece of bread strapped to its back?

 

[darkness975]

First of all, I love your setups. Very nice. What kind of bins are those? Keeping the webs low would keep falls from injuring the spiders. At the very least, it would help.

Unfortunately, I lost my last black widow in the night after she ate a cricket earlier that day. I'm not sure if she fell and then died or died and then fell. I guess it doesn't matter. She was too fat. I feel a bit guilty about that and want to make sure this widow gets a safer setup. I plan on reducing the number of feedings to keep her thinner, as well. At this point, even pinhead crickets are a pretty good-sized meal. I'd like to find something between Drosophila melanogaster fruit flies and pinhead crickets so she doesn't get too fat after a feeding. Maybe I should look into Drosophila hydei? I have a baby jumper that should graduate to that species in a few months, anyway.

As for her being a brown widow, it's highly unlikely. There are no reports of invasive brown widows anywhere near my area of California. They tend to like warm climates. They do well in Southern California, but I think it's too cold for them here (at least for now). If it is a brown widow, it would be the first documented case in our area. I've never seen a brown widow or spiky brown widow egg sacs. All brown-colored female widows I've observed have turned into shiny black widows with top-heavy rather than bottom-heavy hourglasses.

Here are a couple of sites on identifying brown widows. You can see that "Doug" fits the profile of an immature black widow. "His" hourglass hasn't turned completely red yet, but it's the right shape.

Brown Widow Spider | Center for Invasive Species Research (ucr.edu)
How to identify Brown Widow Spiders | Center for Invasive Species Research (ucr.edu)

My last female black widow came from the same patio as my current widow. She was about the same size as my current widow when I first found her, and she was still brown. I told my mother I wanted to rescue her and asked her not to spray. I didn't have the necessary gear with me to capture her safely, so I went home. In the meantime, I got sick. It was a while before I returned to capture the widow. By then she had molted and grown, but still wasn't full size. She was, however, completely black. The hourglass and general configuration were that of a typical Latrodectus hesperus, which are ubiquitous where I live. My avatar is that of one of our local widows. Her name is Ungoliath and she lives (lived?) on a trail about five miles from my mother's patio. If she's still alive, I'll be visiting her in the spring.

I've observed many black widows turn from brown to black. Since brown widows vary so widely in color, it can sometimes be difficult to identify them, but I'm aware of the differences. The spiky egg sacs would have given them away. Every female widow I've observed (tons) has started out brown, turned black and laid white, round egg sacs.

If "Doug" does turn out to be female, I'll post a picture of her when she turns black...or if I'm wrong, when she stays brown.

They're cereal / food storage containers.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

They're cereal / food storage containers.

Thanks a bunch. They look very functional. How do you provide ventilation for airtight containers? I could put some holes in the top with a small-tipped soldering pen. I also like the sand on the bottom. It looks like it might help cushion falls. I might consult you further on providing a safer, more suitable habitat. If I get a few containers, I could rescue more black widows.

What do you think of these containers?

Amazon.com: Cereal Containers Storage Set - 4 Piece Airtight Large Dry Food Storage Containers(135.2oz), BPA Free Dispenser Plastic Cereal Storage Containers with 16 Labels & Pen - FOOYOO : Home & Kitchen

 

[The Snark]

If, when you drop a buttered piece of bread, it always lands buttered-side down...and if a cat always lands on its feet, what happens when you drop a cat with a buttered piece of bread strapped to its back?

Except for Snit which due to his defect prefers to just pile in any which way. And Gnarly who is a total klutz.

 

[darkness975]

Thanks a bunch. They look very functional. How do you provide ventilation for airtight containers? I could put some holes in the top with a small-tipped soldering pen. I also like the sand on the bottom. It looks like it might help cushion falls. I might consult you further on providing a safer, more suitable habitat. If I get a few containers, I could rescue more black widows.

What do you think of these containers?

Amazon.com: Cereal Containers Storage Set - 4 Piece Airtight Large Dry Food Storage Containers(135.2oz), BPA Free Dispenser Plastic Cereal Storage Containers with 16 Labels & Pen - FOOYOO : Home & Kitchen

Those work. Anything like that you can make holes in and have sealing lids to prevent escapes. Once they establish their webs they will settle in.
The sand is great because it's light colored and I can easily see where they are.
A couple of the containers I have don't have air holes yet. I open the lids every other day for a minute or so to allow air exchange for those particular ones. The rest have holes poked in them so it's less important to open the lids on those. I still like to do it though as it can get rather stagnant inside.

 

[Jonathan6303]

Except for Snit which due to his defect prefers to just pile in any which way. And Gnarly who is a total klutz.

Snark that orange black calico is gorgeous. Makes mis mine she passed at 15 2-3 years ago

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Those work. Anything like that you can make holes in and have sealing lids to prevent escapes. Once they establish their webs they will settle in.
The sand is great because it's light colored and I can easily see where they are.
A couple of the containers I have don't have air holes yet. I open the lids every other day for a minute or so to allow air exchange for those particular ones. The rest have holes poked in them so it's less important to open the lids on those. I still like to do it though as it can get rather stagnant inside.

Thanks. You've been very helpful!!!

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Pretty kitties. I especially like the tortoise shell, but I'm a little confused. I thought we were doing random non-sequiturs and yet you followed up with something that wasn't completely random. You referenced cats in response to my post about a cat. I thought you'd come back with something like, "Why is there braille on drive-through ATMs?" Then I would give a random, useless fact like, "My apartment manager is about as helpful as a snake harness." And so on.

But seriously, pretty cats.

Except for Snit which due to his defect prefers to just pile in any which way. And Gnarly who is a total klutz.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Those work. Anything like that you can make holes in and have sealing lids to prevent escapes. Once they establish their webs they will settle in.
The sand is great because it's light colored and I can easily see where they are.
A couple of the containers I have don't have air holes yet. I open the lids every other day for a minute or so to allow air exchange for those particular ones. The rest have holes poked in them so it's less important to open the lids on those. I still like to do it though as it can get rather stagnant inside.

A good soldering pen with a fine tip is the easiest way I know to poke holes in plastic, but you gotta be really careful with them. I've made a few mistakes that could have ended in disaster —. Gonna use safety goggles and gloves from now on. Eek.

I'm glad I found you. You've had a lot of experience keeping widows. All of my experience is from field observation, which I've been doing for several years. I've documented the lives of widows living on my favorite trail. In order to see behaviors, one has to go at night during warm weather. I do night walks with friends where we check in with various known black widows and other creepy-crawlies. Here are a few pics from our last walk:

Antlion Lacewing:


Scorpion Under Ultraviolet Light:


Female Tarantula Hawk (Night):



Ungoliath the Black Widow:

 

[darkness975]

A good soldering pen with a fine tip is the easiest way I know to poke holes in plastic, but you gotta be really careful with them. I've made a few mistakes that could have ended in disaster —. Gonna use safety goggles and gloves from now on. Eek.

I'm glad I found you. You've had a lot of experience keeping widows. All of my experience is from field observation, which I've been doing for several years. I've documented the lives of widows living on my favorite trail. In order to see behaviors, one has to go at night during warm weather. I do night walks with friends where we check in with various known black widows and other creepy-crawlies. Here are a few pics from our last walk:

Antlion Lacewing:
View attachment 408619

Scorpion Under Ultraviolet Light:
View attachment 408621

Female Tarantula Hawk (Night):
View attachment 408627


Ungoliath the Black Widow:
View attachment 408626

Awesome photography. And glad to help!

 

[The Snark]

wasn't completely random. You refe

Quite right. I owe you a banana tortoise sandwich. Out of curiosity, what trail? Where is your stomping grounds, approximately?
Re my reply: Mental dispatch mode -> Send in the 911 call for a serious latro expert who is very prompt and accurate - @darkness975 (shades of our dispatcher who was tight lipped, terse, and didn't like me. My call sign followed by a highway marker, IE, "39, 137". Blink and I miss it. Stray cattle on the road? Shots fired? Drunken brawl? She once got me stuck behind the snow plow for 45 minutes to ferry a stranded kid home. Thanks for the low down, lady.)

Snark that orange black calico is gorgeous. Makes mis mine she passed at 15 2-3 years ago

Sorry for your loss.
Gnarly rewrote the cat manual. Came out late and backwards. Eyes open in one hour. Bulldozed all her larger siblings out of the way for the best feeding station. Took strolls about the room the next day - getting wobbly to her feet, too unsteady to walk, she would take a leap and pile in then repeat. A neurosis in the shape of a cat. Circles the fridge at least 100 times a day. Took her five years to calm down enough to be picked up and cuddled.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Again: I really like your enclosures. I meant to ask: What kind of sand do you use? I need to find some stout sticks and (I'm assuming) fake plants. Once the cereal bins get here, I'll have a better idea of how to proceed.

I used a magnifying glass to get a better look at "Doug." I could see "his" chelicerae with their tiny pincer fangs. They might be big enough to deliver a bite, so I must be careful. After finding the right angle, I saw two very tiny pedipalps. At this size, a male should have his emboli or at least the beginnings of emboli.

This spider must be a nearly half-grown female black widow. In one or two more molts, she should be entirely black. It's good I've had her since she was tiny because I know for a fact she hasn't bred with a male. If I do get egg sacs, they'll be infertile. I don't want hundreds of baby black widows running around. That's a bridge too far.

Having a few adult females around the place would keep life interesting. Maybe I can rescue more babies in the fall or even some adults slated for extermination.

If she ends up being a brown widow, it might well be the first documented case in my county. Considering I got my last black widow on the same patio, only a couple of feet away, I'm pretty sure it's a Latrodectus hesperus. Heck, it's probably related to my last widow. My first widow laid a small egg sac almost immediately. Latrodectus hesperus lay white, rounded egg sacs. I think I saw an egg sac in one of your bins. It looks sort of tan and elongated. Are your spiders Latrodectus mactans? I believe their egg sacs are darker in color than those of L. hesperus.

Maybe my mother missed my last female widow's first egg sac and that's why there were teensy black widows everywhere. Maybe my first widow was their mother. If not, they're probably related in some other way.

I didn't have my last black widow for very long, so I'll probably borrow her name: Patty Black, named after the patio where both spiders were found. Once I get her enclosure set up, I'll put a small warning sticker on it with her name and this silly rhyme:

She's a knick-knack
Patty Black
Gave the bug a home
Don't worry
I won't let her roam

Yeah, I'm weird, but "normal" is boring. "Normal" people generally don't keep black widow spiders in their homes. Their loss.

You can share as many of your own images as you'd like.

Honestly based on the pictures you shared so far and your location yours looks like a female L. geometricus (brown widow). Same care as a black widow but they're an invasive species that's displacing the native black widows so I don't care for them much.

Care is basically the same. Set up your Latrodectus like this. The key is to ensure the webbing anchor points are only half way up so they are 90% unlikely to web all the way to the top. I say 90% because some of mine still manage to do it so always be vigilant. The plants in each enclosure are for their hideaway and I spritz a little water every couple weeks for them to drink.
View attachment 408513

 

[darkness975]

Again: I really like your enclosures. I meant to ask: What kind of sand do you use? I need to find some stout sticks and (I'm assuming) fake plants. Once the cereal bins get here, I'll have a better idea of how to proceed.

I used a magnifying glass to get a better look at "Doug." I could see "his" chelicerae with their tiny pincer fangs. They might be big enough to deliver a bite, so I must be careful. After finding the right angle, I saw two very tiny pedipalps. At this size, a male should have his emboli or at least the beginnings of emboli.

This spider must be a nearly half-grown female black widow. In one or two more molts, she should be entirely black. It's good I've had her since she was tiny because I know for a fact she hasn't bred with a male. If I do get egg sacs, they'll be infertile. I don't want hundreds of baby black widows running around. That's a bridge too far.

Having a few adult females around the place would keep life interesting. Maybe I can rescue more babies in the fall or even some adults slated for extermination.

If she ends up being a brown widow, it might well be the first documented case in my county. Considering I got my last black widow on the same patio, only a couple of feet away, I'm pretty sure it's a Latrodectus hesperus. Heck, it's probably related to my last widow. My first widow laid a small egg sac almost immediately. Latrodectus hesperus lay white, rounded egg sacs. I think I saw an egg sac in one of your bins. It looks sort of tan and elongated. Are your spiders Latrodectus mactans? I believe their egg sacs are darker in color than those of L. hesperus.

Maybe my mother missed my last female widow's first egg sac and that's why there were teensy black widows everywhere. Maybe my first widow was their mother. If not, they're probably related in some other way.

I didn't have my last black widow for very long, so I'll probably borrow her name: Patty Black, named after the patio where both spiders were found. Once I get her enclosure set up, I'll put a small warning sticker on it with her name and this silly rhyme:

She's a knick-knack
Patty Black
Gave the bug a home
Don't worry
I won't let her roam

Yeah, I'm weird, but "normal" is boring. "Normal" people generally don't keep black widow spiders in their homes. Their loss.

I use play sand. I got a 50 lb bag at home depot for like $3.99 and it works wonders.
Right now I have Latrodectus hesperus and Latrodectus mactans. Not sure exactly how many. The first two pictures are one of my mature males.

 

[darkness975]

Babies and some adult females.

 

[Edan bandoot]

View attachment 408865 View attachment 408866 View attachment 408867 View attachment 408868 View attachment 408869

Your hands don't match your profile picture

 

[darkness975]

Immature L. hesperus are so different in appearance than L. mactans.