Could a potent venom OW bite be fatal to an infant?

Belegnole

Tarantula Guy
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Also, my apologies, I put "bee allergy" by mistake. The context was meant as tarantula venom allergy. Makes sense why everybody got so bent out of shape.
Thank you and I agree that "better safe that sorry" is a wise way to approach the unknown. The other reason people were so adamant about their take on this is the thread title. Misinformation relating to tarantulas could cause panic and we do not want or need that.
 

Crone Returns

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Just don't play or handle your Ts. Be careful when feeding and rehousing. Also, describe "mild allergy".
I think you'll be fine.
Oooorrrrr:
Parents and other humans with nieces, etc.
Don't let the human youngsters play with Ts AND don't let your Ts play with the kids.
I thank all above for the scientific view. I learned a lot.
I
 

Abyss

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For what its worth i say any T can be harmful/lethal due to potential anaphalaxis (spelled that wrong im sure lol).

From what i remmeber in college medical field courses, anaphalaxsis is one of many potential allergic reactions and other venoms (ex: bee stings) are know to cause it along w/many many MANY other things that arent even venom related (ex: shellfish or peanuts).
I see no possible reason w/the vast ammount of "allergies" in society resulting in anaphalaxsis that T venom is anymore unlikely to cause it if allergic.

Just my 2 cents :)
 

Matabuey

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A baby, possible. But if you were to seek medical attention, most likely no. Many things are a risk to babies with their weakened immune systems. So it would be wise to treat any Tarantula as potentially fatal to a baby.

2 month old children have been stung by Centruroides sculpturatus - a survived with medical attention. A much more dangerous animal than any Tarantula.

Or young toddlers being bitten by Crotalus oreganus helleri (a very dangerous rattlesnake) and surviving with medical attention.

I wouldn't worry about a 4 year old - obviously you'd seek medical attention just to be safe. But weak tarantula venoms (they're weak in the grand scheme of things), are really only a risk to the very young/elderly/severely ill individuals.



For what its worth i say any T can be harmful/lethal due to potential anaphalaxis (spelled that wrong im sure lol).

From what i remmeber in college medical field courses, anaphalaxsis is one of many potential allergic reactions and other venoms (ex: bee stings) are know to cause it along w/many many MANY other things that arent even venom related (ex: shellfish or peanuts).
I see no possible reason w/the vast ammount of "allergies" in society resulting in anaphalaxsis that T venom is anymore unlikely to cause it if allergic.

Just my 2 cents :)
A baby isn't going to be allergic to Tarantula venom, unless the mother was bitten whilst pregnant and the baby was exposed to the venom that way. Even then it's a long shot.
 
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Abyss

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A baby, possible. But if you were to seek medical attention, most likely no. Many things are a risk to babies with their weakened immune systems. So it would be wise to treat any Tarantula as potentially fatal to a baby.

2 month old children have been stung by Centruroides sculpturatus - a survived with medical attention. A much more dangerous animal than any Tarantula.





A baby isn't going to be allergic to Tarantula venom, unless the mother was bitten whilst pregnant and the baby was exposed to the venom that way. Even then it's a long shot.
Long shot or not, its feasible till proven otherwise and i wasnt meaning the baby may be allergic, i was speaking in general that MANY ppl have anaphylactic reactions to many things venomous and otherwise so to that point, until anyone can produce factual evidence that theres no possible way T venom can cause said reaction under the correct circumstances, its logical to safetly assume it can is all
 

Andrea82

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Long shot or not, its feasible till proven otherwise and i wasnt meaning the baby may be allergic, i was speaking in general that MANY ppl have anaphylactic reactions to many things venomous and otherwise so to that point, until anyone can produce factual evidence that theres no possible way T venom can cause said reaction under the correct circumstances, its logical to safetly assume it can is all
Actually, that was the point of discussion. Tarantula venom doesn't contain the elements that are responsible for anaphylaxis. See @boina s post.
 

Rob1985

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Just don't play or handle your Ts. Be careful when feeding and rehousing. Also, describe "mild allergy".
I think you'll be fine.
Oooorrrrr:
Parents and other humans with nieces, etc.
Don't let the human youngsters play with Ts AND don't let your Ts play with the kids.
I thank all above for the scientific view. I learned a lot.
Also, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. :D
 

boina

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Long shot or not, its feasible till proven otherwise and i wasnt meaning the baby may be allergic, i was speaking in general that MANY ppl have anaphylactic reactions to many things venomous and otherwise so to that point, until anyone can produce factual evidence that theres no possible way T venom can cause said reaction under the correct circumstances, its logical to safetly assume it can is all
First of all: Nothing is impossible.

Second: Any immune reaction is caused by antibodies binding to antigens. For antibodies to recognize that antigen these things need to have a certain size. Tarantula toxins are rather primitive in the overall scheme of things and most of all: the peptides are short. That means it is highly unlikely that any immune reaction will take place and an allergic reaction is an overblown, dysfunctional immune reaction. So you first of all need an immune reaction at all (highly unlikely) and then it needs to get out of control (not the normal way of things either).

It hasn't happened yet.

And hi @Andrea82 :)
 

Abyss

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Actually, that was the point of discussion. Tarantula venom doesn't contain the elements that are responsible for anaphylaxis. See @boina s post.
I will respectfully disagree under the premiss that almost anything can cause a severe reaction weather it even has venom or not. Peanuts as an example
Can cause anaphalaxysis if you allergic and peanuts dont even have venom so saying that T venom foesnt have whats needed to cause it to ke is a moot point as almost anything can cause it.
The defining factor seems to be weather or not your immune system will react as such or not.
 

boina

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I will respectfully disagree under the premiss that almost anything can cause a severe reaction weather it even has venom or not. Peanuts as an example
Can cause anaphalaxysis if you allergic and peanuts dont even have venom so saying that T venom foesnt have whats needed to cause it to ke is a moot point as almost anything can cause it.
The defining factor seems to be weather or not your immune system will react as such or not.
I think you misunderstood @Andrea82. Post #38 was the one she pointed to and in post #50 I tried to explain again why tarantula toxins will not cause allergies. She never said anything about a non-venom not being able to cause allergies, on the contrary. I'm a bit confused by your answer.
 

Andrea82

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I will respectfully disagree under the premiss that almost anything can cause a severe reaction weather it even has venom or not. Peanuts as an example
Can cause anaphalaxysis if you allergic and peanuts dont even have venom so saying that T venom foesnt have whats needed to cause it to ke is a moot point as almost anything can cause it.
The defining factor seems to be weather or not your immune system will react as such or not.
Since the question was specifically geared towards tarantula venom, then that is the item up for discussion and questioning if anaphylaxis can be triggered by that specific substance.
By your post, one could post 'can O2 cause anaphylaxis?' and get a positive answer, since according to your statement, anything can cause anaphylaxis. And that is simply not true. We know which elements trigger these symptoms.
Tarantula venom does not have what it takes to trigger an anaphylaxic shock.
 

Andrea82

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@Abyss
'The defining factor seems to be whether your immunesystem will react as such or not'
No. The defining factor in this thread is whether tarantula VENOM is capable of eliciting anaphylaxis. Not general elements, tarantula venom.
 

Matabuey

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Tarantula venom does not have what it takes to trigger an anaphylaxic shock.
Yes it does. I've been through this on my thread that is stickied.

It is possible, just unlikely given the make up of tarantula venom. I will copy and past what I have written before:

Anaphylaxis:

Tons of interest in this topic and speculation, some correct to a degree and others not so correct.

So far there isn’t an actual case to study with regards to anaphylaxis and tarantula venom. Unlike venomous snakes or Latrodectus which have produced anaphylaxis – but there may well be a good reason for that.

In general tarantula venoms consist of much smaller proteins, as outlined by Wolfgang, the neurotoxins are around 5 to 15 kDa (50 – 150 amino acids), compared with that found in Latrodectus which are as large as 140kDa (1400 amino acids), some proteins in venomous snakes can be as large as 350kda (3500 amino acids).

A large percentage of T venoms contain proteins below 10 kDa (100 amino acids). Supported by various studies on T venom, there are some larger components, but they’re much less common (a couple of papers, but can link more):

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140506/ncomms4765/full/ncomms4765.html#s1

https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_from_Chinese_tarantulaChilobrachys_jingzhao

Anaphylaxis is already a rare event, whether it’s from venomous snakes or true spiders. But there are no cases in people who are bitten by tarantulas – more than once. Important to add here that, you cannot suffer anaphylaxis on your first exposure.

When you hear of people suffering anaphylaxis from a Bee sting on their “first exposure”, they often were too young to remember the first time they were stung, or they have been stung by other vespids – which share some of the same common allergens.

Why might that be, that we haven’t seen a case of anaphylaxis from Tarantulas, when there are so many keepers of these animals around the world?

For a protein to elicit anaphylaxis it must meet several conditions. One of those conditions, is size of the protein.

“An allergen must therefore contain at least two IgE binding sites (epitopes), each of which will be a minimum of approximately 15 amino acid residues long, in order that antibody binding can occur. This implies a lower size limit for protein allergens of approximately 30 amino acid residues (M.W. of approximately 3 kD).”

Naturally it follows, the larger the amino acid, the more IgE binding sites are present, thus being much more immunogenic. Tarantulas also contain nucleic acid, which is a poor immunogen by itself.

Taken from: http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/2/235.full


Potent immunogens, are those over 100kDa, and those below 10kDa are said to be weak immunogens (T venom is mostly below 10kDa). (http://megaslides.com/doc/1395182/immunology) – page 52 states this, and you can bring up various papers on the internet that also state the same.


Is it possible to suffer anaphylactic shock to tarantula venom?

From the information we have, and our understanding of how anaphylaxis works – yes, it is possible.

BUT considering that anaphylaxis is rare in venomous snakes or Latrodectus sp, which contain much more potent immunogenic constituents, and that tarantula venom is primarily made up of weak immunogenic constituents, it would be wise to assume that it is unlikely one would suffer anaphylaxis. A view that has been shared by other toxicologists/immunologists previously.
 

boina

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@Matabuey : Yes, I've read your thread - great thread, btw - and all the articles you mentioned and a few more. I think that's what I've stated twice now and so I'll state it again: Anaphylaxis following a tarantula bite is highly unlikely, but not impossible. Btw, size isn't all that determines immunogenicity, so not all large proteins are potent immunogens - just a side note. It's rather difficult to induce an immune reaction when you want one, i.e. against cancer proteins, which would be close to my area of expertise.
I wouldn't exactly compare T venom to a peanut when it comes to immunogenic potential, though...

A more important point, and a point you mentioned too, is something people tend to overlook: You need to be bitten AT LEAST TWICE for an anaphylactic shock to develope. The immunosystem needs to be primed to overreact like that.

Considering everything we know, for me it makes no sense at all to be scared of an anaphylactic reaction following a tarantula bite.
 

Crone Returns

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Since the question was specifically geared towards tarantula venom, then that is the item up for discussion and questioning if anaphylaxis can be triggered by that specific substance.
By your post, one could post 'can O2 cause anaphylaxis?' and get a positive answer, since according to your statement, anything can cause anaphylaxis. And that is simply not true. We know which elements trigger these symptoms.
Tarantula venom does not have what it takes to trigger an anaphylaxic shock.
O2 is especially bad for methane breathers...hehe:rofl::rofl:
 

Abyss

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Since the question was specifically geared towards tarantula venom, then that is the item up for discussion and questioning if anaphylaxis can be triggered by that specific substance.
By your post, one could post 'can O2 cause anaphylaxis?' and get a positive answer, since according to your statement, anything can cause anaphylaxis. And that is simply not true. We know which elements trigger these symptoms.
Tarantula venom does not have what it takes to trigger an anaphylaxic shock.
If your going to quote me be accurate plz, i never said everything can cause it, i said MANY MANY things can. I think in a dif post i said almost anything can. Both of which are true. I have known many ppl over the years in the medical field and have heard of all sorts of crazy allergies (Even if rare) resulting in an anaphalactic reaction. To think otherwise is foolish to say the least.

As i read it, the original question an debate was weather or not T venom (OW in specific) could kill an infant.

As i said before, w/an infant being much weaker/smaller an having a non-existent (or VERY weak) immune system i say the answer is YES it could. Dont mistake that for me saying it WILL, im saying it could, theres no reson to think otherwise. Also note* that those staements ar wvarring medical intervention as the question was not directed around medical i tervention just a blanket "is it possible" and the answer is yes.
I just went on to speculate it could (again, i said COULD) kill anyone IF they have an anaphylactic reaction which i dont how you can say is untrue.
 
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Abyss

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I think you misunderstood @Andrea82. Post #38 was the one she pointed to and in post #50 I tried to explain again why tarantula toxins will not cause allergies. She never said anything about a non-venom not being able to cause allergies, on the contrary. I'm a bit confused by your answer.
As i read it, shes taking the stance that tarantula venom CANT cause it. I disagree and speculate its definatly possible.
If i read it wrong then apologies for sure
 
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