Could a potent venom OW bite be fatal to an infant?

Chris LXXIX

ArachnoGod
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
5,845
Wait- so if I have a mild allergy ro bee stings, all T bites will affect me similarly?
No. Not even if you are bitten by an OW Theraphosidae.

When I wrote, prior, that certain powerful venom T's (like S.calceatum, for instance) can probably kill a three months baby with a bite, I didn't even considered that (allergic reactions and such). It's only a matter of potent venom in a weak young body, a terrible mix.
 

Leila

Arachnobaron
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
525
No. Not even if you are bitten by an OW Theraphosidae.

When I wrote, prior, that certain powerful venom T's (like S.calceatum, for instance) can probably kill a three months baby with a bite, I didn't even considered that (allergic reactions and such). It's only a matter of potent venom in a weak young body, a terrible mix.
Okay. :) I just saw above comments and considered the possibility. I mean, I HAVE pondered, prior to this conversation, how or if my (mild) allergy to bees would translate with T venom. :)
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,685
Any bite could be fatal if a person has a bee sting allergy and goes into anaphylaxis without epinephrine.
Nope. See posted link in my first post in this thread. Some studies have been done while you were offline here ;)
 

darkness975

Latrodectus
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
5,639
So in my years in the hobby I've gotten a good sense for who's who in nasty bites (not from being bitten thank goodness).

And from all my reading I know Tarantulas aren't deadly to humans.

However... Someone posted on Facebook his wife made him get rid of an Indian tarantula that was "pretty fatal to infants". I'm assuming a Poecilotheria.

That got me to thinking... Could it kill a baby? (No I'm not trying to set loose Tarantulas on babies!)

Just curious. We worry about dogs and cats with more potent OW species. I know different circulatory systems and biology probably have a different effect for venom as well.

But does the smaller size and weaker systems of an infant mean these bites that are pretty severe as far as pain and side effects to us... Enough to cause a fatality for an infant?

Just wondering

Especially as I'm looking to move in with my fiance who has a 4 year old and we would eventually like to have our own.
You can lock the enclosures out of reach and subsequently lock the room they are in as well for double protection. You can even add a gate or something for triple protection. Make sure the enclosures themselves are secured and have no weak spots or gaps that compromise the integrity.

An alternative course of action would be that you'd have to stick with less potent and slower NW species until the kids are older.
 

Rob1985

This user has no status.
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
866
Nope. See posted link in my first post in this thread. Some studies have been done while you were offline here ;)
I'm well aware of the "studies", but I'm also a medical professional and know that anaphylaxis can kill anybody if not treated properly. To say it isn't possible is ignorant.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,685
I'm well aware of the "studies", but I'm also a medical professional and know that anaphylaxis can kill anybody if not treated properly. To say it isn't possible is ignorant.
Agreed, anaphylaxis can kill. It's horrible.
But it is not certain that tarantula venom causes anaphylaxis. Its components are not the same of say, a bee. It seems to lack the components that are responsible for anaphylaxis.
Regular shock can however occur, and mistaken for anaphylaxis, since it has a lot of same symptoms.
 

HybridReplicate

Spectrostatic
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
107
I'm well aware of the "studies", but I'm also a medical professional and know that anaphylaxis can kill anybody if not treated properly. To say it isn't possible is ignorant.
There is no known cross-sensitization between bee venom & spider venom. To make a crude analogy, you can be allergic peanuts & it does not imply an allergy to all nuts.

ETA: Not to mention that theoretically size of the proteins in tarantula venom are generally too small to elicit a robust immune response, nonetheless an IgE-mediated event. Not impossible, but highly improbable, with no extant case studies.
 
Last edited:

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,685
This could lead to anaphylaxis, which can be deadly. I realize it's rare, but because it's rare doesn't mean it can't happen.
http://www.livescience.com/41795-tarantula-bites-harmful.html

Also this.... which is from the urticating hairs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12368120
This could lead to anaphylaxis, which can be deadly. I realize it's rare, but because it's rare doesn't mean it can't happen.
http://www.livescience.com/41795-tarantula-bites-harmful.html

Also this.... which is from the urticating hairs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12368120
How does this article prove that tarantula venom causes anaphylaxis??
 

Rob1985

This user has no status.
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
866
There is no known cross-sensitization between bee venom & spider venom. To make a crude analogy, you can be allergic peanuts & it does not imply an allergy to all nuts.
Nowhere in my posts was I saying that a "bee venom" allergy is the same a "T venom" allergy. I am however saying that a person who is allergic to tarantula venom (potentially unknown), and I referring to medically significant venom here, to scoff at the idea that someone simply could not go into anaphylaxis is ignorant.

Any toxinologist will tell you that animals with "medically significant venom" have the potential to cause a severe allergic reaction to those who are sensitive and part of the problem is not knowing if you are sensitive. While rare, to say anaphylaxis and potentially death can't happen is simply incorrect.
 

HybridReplicate

Spectrostatic
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
107
Nowhere in my posts was I saying that a "bee venom" allergy is the same a "T venom" allergy.
Your previous post states a link between the two, specifically stating that a bite could cause anaphylaxis in the setting of an apitoxin allergy:

Any bite could be fatal if a person has a bee sting allergy and goes into anaphylaxis without epinephrine.

I am however saying that a person who is allergic to tarantula venom (potentially unknown), and I referring to medically significant venom here, to scoff at the idea that someone simply could not go into anaphylaxis is ignorant.
I don't believe it matters if the venom is medically significant. Just because a substance causes adverse effects doesn't increase the likelihood that it is an immunogen.

Any toxinologist will tell you that animals with "medically significant venom" have the potential to cause a severe allergic reaction to those who are sensitive and part of the problem is not knowing if you are sensitive. While rare, to say anaphylaxis and potentially death can't happen is simply naive and incorrect.
You have been provided with all the necessary resources to come to an educated conclusion on these matters. You have made the choice to cling to a half-understanding of the mechanism of IgE-mediated events & are citing sources that have no bearing on the discussion that you initiated.

My job is not to convince you. I am not arguing, I am telling you.
 

Rob1985

This user has no status.
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
866
Your previous post states a link between the two, specifically stating that a bite could cause anaphylaxis in the setting of an apitoxin allergy:






I don't believe it matters if the venom is medically significant. Just because a substance causes adverse effects doesn't increase the likelihood that it is an immunogen.



You have been provided with all the necessary resources to come to an educated conclusion on these matters. You have made the choice to cling to a half-understanding of the mechanism of IgE-mediated events & are citing sources that have no bearing on the discussion that you initiated.

My job is not to convince you. I am not arguing, I am telling you.
Thank for lesson Bill Bye, but where are your sources.

Also, discrediting anaphylaxis in any venom that hasn't been studied long enough and is known to have medical significance is ignorant. I stand by my decision to err on the side of caution by saying that medically significant tarantula venom could cause anaphylaxis, which can cause death.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,685
Thank for lesson Bill Bye, but where are your sources.

Also, discrediting anaphylaxis in any venom that hasn't been studied long enough and is known to have medical significance is ignorant. I stand by my decision to err on the side of caution by saying that medically significant tarantula venom could cause anaphylaxis, which can cause death.
I agree to always err on the side of caution, that is just common sense.
Anaphylaxis is terrible and definitely potentially deadly. But there haven't been cases where a person was allergic to tarantula venom specifically. The symptoms the persons who were bitten displayed were not necessarily those of anaphylaxis. Localized swelling, palpitations, muscle cramps are symptoms of the venom, not anaphylaxis. So to say that tarantula venom causes anaphylaxis is wrong, just as saying that the venom doesn't cause anaphylaxis. We simply don't know yet. What we do know is that venom cause symptoms that can be potentially dangerous. But why it is dangerous (anaphylactic shock or not), we are not sure. But considering the latest tests and studies, it is highly unlikely that tarantula venom causes anaphylaxis.

But that aside, an allergic reaction to the urticating hairs is highly possible. Your link mentioned that as well which got me thinking if it would be possible to get anaphylaxis because of the hairs. It seems like the allergy to the hairs follows a more...standard path like other allergies. What are your thoughts on this?
 

Belegnole

Tarantula Guy
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
171
This could lead to anaphylaxis, which can be deadly. I realize it's rare, but because it's rare doesn't mean it can't happen.
http://www.livescience.com/41795-tarantula-bites-harmful.html

Also this.... which is from the urticating hairs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12368120
I am not going to argue whether someone could be allergic to either tarantula venom or their urticating hairs. Obviously it is well within the realm of possibilities.

However, stating that someone who is allergic to bees would be allergic to tarantulas is just wrong. As someone who is allergic to bees I looked into this possibility years ago before getting into this hobby.
 

boina

Lady of the mites
Active Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
2,217
Nowhere in my posts was I saying that a "bee venom" allergy is the same a "T venom" allergy. I am however saying that a person who is allergic to tarantula venom (potentially unknown), and I referring to medically significant venom here, to scoff at the idea that someone simply could not go into anaphylaxis is ignorant.

Any toxinologist will tell you that animals with "medically significant venom" have the potential to cause a severe allergic reaction to those who are sensitive and part of the problem is not knowing if you are sensitive. While rare, to say anaphylaxis and potentially death can't happen is simply incorrect.
You got all wrong. I'm a medical scientist and I've published papers in (cancer-) immunology and this is definitely not how an allergic reaction works. How medically significant or not significant the venom is or if it even is a venom at all has no bearing at all at its immunogenicity. Instead its the kind of protein that determines if an allegic reaction is possible or likely - you can be allergic to nuts, after all, and they are not generally considered toxic. Tarantula toxins are too small to elicit a full blown immunological reaction, therefore an allergic reaction is exceedingly unlikely, though not completely impossible. However, there is NO report at all so far about allergic reactions to tarantula toxins. ALL the publications you cited were dealing with the effects off the toxins and NOT with an allergic reaction. And we DO know how tarantula toxin works, even if some of the more popular sources you cited do not. The muscle spasms and so on are caused by parts of the tarantula toxins (neurotoxins) that target voltage gated ion channels and NOT by an allergic reaction. Here is just one paper of many: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27045173
(I'm not saying it explains everything - every paper only deals with one part of the puzzle)
 

Rob1985

This user has no status.
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
866
You got all wrong. I'm a medical scientist and I've published papers in (cancer-) immunology and this is definitely not how an allergic reaction works. How medically significant or not significant the venom is or if it even is a venom at all has no bearing at all at its immunogenicity. Instead its the kind of protein that determines if an allegic reaction is possible or likely - you can be allergic to nuts, after all, and they are not generally considered toxic. Tarantula toxins are too small to elicit a full blown immunological reaction, therefore an allergic reaction is exceedingly unlikely, though not completely impossible. However, there is NO report at all so far about allergic reactions to tarantula toxins. ALL the publications you cited were dealing with the effects off the toxins and NOT with an allergic reaction. And we DO know how tarantula toxin works, even if some of the more popular sources you cited do not. The muscle spasms and so on are caused by parts of the tarantula toxins (neurotoxins) that target voltage gated ion channels and NOT by an allergic reaction. Here is just one paper of many: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27045173
(I'm not saying it explains everything - every paper only deals with one part of the puzzle)
The original point I was trying to get to, was because not enough being known with bites, erring on the side of caution that a serious anaphylactic reaction could occur from a bite or urticating hairs is probably best practice.
You need to back that up with evidence.
Also, my apologies, I put "bee allergy" by mistake. The context was meant as tarantula venom allergy. Makes sense why everybody got so bent out of shape.
 

Andrea82

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
3,685
I think it was a good discussion to be honest. Everybody learns something, and there is no snippy/snidey remarks or bashing :)
Thumbs up for everybody staying civil :D
 
Top