Controversial Opinion - the ladder system

[0311usmc]

@YungRasputin
Young kids collect OW tarantulas in Asia everyday to bring home for dinner to eat, they could give a rats ass less about there venom, why do you care so much about it?

 

[jrh3]

arachnid venom can be just as deadly as snake venom

We are talking about tarantula venom, not all arachnids. Which tarantula venom is not deadly. There has been studies on this. Here are few good reads but you can rabbit hole as deep as you want on scientific studies. I have yet to find one on being deadly.

Tarantula venom, and anaphylaxis | Arachnoboards

Pharmacological characterization of venoms from three theraphosid spiders: Poecilotheria regalis, Ceratogyrus darlingi and Brachypelma epicureanum (nih.gov)


Depending on the species, the bite could be bad but not deadly.

 

[Introvertebrate]

"Controversial Opinion - disregarding the ladder system." Just thought I'd reawaken everyone's maternal instincts this morning.

 

[YungRasputin]

@YungRasputin
Young kids collect OW tarantulas in Asia everyday to bring home for dinner to eat, they could give a rats ass less about there venom, why do you care so much about it?

this is supremely silly - there’s also an estimated 40k+ children in the Congo mining for cobalt rn with out safety equipment - some of them die, some of them don’t - does that make this a safe activity to engage in because it exists? no, i would say not

We are talking about tarantula venom, not all arachnids. Which tarantula venom is not deadly. There has been studies on this. Here are few good reads but you can rabbit hole as deep as you want on scientific studies. I have yet to find one on being deadly.

Tarantula venom, and anaphylaxis | Arachnoboards

Pharmacological characterization of venoms from three theraphosid spiders: Poecilotheria regalis, Ceratogyrus darlingi and Brachypelma epicureanum (nih.gov)


Depending on the species, the bite could be bad but not deadly.

this seems to be at this point a repeating feedback loop where the same fallacious argumentation is presented as a counter-argument irrespective of what i say and irrespective of what’s presented - starting to wonder why i should continue because again, i could say that honeybee and wasp venom is also not deadly to humans given it’s level of toxicity but that says nothing of it’s potential

 

[Introvertebrate]

this seems to be at this point a repeating feedback loop where the same fallacious argumentation is presented as a counter-argument irrespective of what i say and irrespective of what’s presented................

Oh, so you've talked to anti-vaxxers too.

 

[AlbaArachnids92]

So this is something that my mind argues against itself about on a semi regular basis. I agree with the concept of the ladder system specifically for younger generations / people with no previous husbandry experience.
Similar to progressive overload in the gym, I wouldn't recommend that you bomb in at the heavy weights and risk an injury. Starting light, get the technique (experience) down and adding to that solid base would seem comparatively very sensible IMO.

My contrarian sides only counter argument is there are those who have done the legwork to prepare themselves for the purchase. I felt I was in that range having spent a good couple years interested in T's through YouTube (I am aware now this is not the best of sources) and then a further year or so lurking here and gathering up husbandry/rehousing method. I still chose something considered more docile, NW and terrestrial. It was not long before the first OW was added but only after I felt I was more than comfortable with mitigating any potential risks.

As already stated by others, there are people who lie and there are people claim to have done research and then ask the absolute basics.

 

[0311usmc]

this is supremely silly - there’s also an estimated 40k+ children in the Congo mining for cobalt rn with out safety equipment - some of them die, some of them don’t - does that make this a safe activity to engage in because it exists? no, i would say not

This is at least the 2nd thread i have read with you gripping about old world venom. My point is still valid, kids in Asia who handle and deal with them everyday could care less about it and just deal with it and your over here comparing it to snake venom like its going to kill you.

 

[8 legged]

Everyone can handle it as he/she/it wants, as long as He/she/it stands behind it and takes responsibility.

But if a question is asked publicly, you get an answer that you might not like, because now the responsibility lies with those who give the answer.

And so it is only logical to advise the easy-care animals.

It's not just dependent on experience. The person as such is also decisive, so I know people with structure and brains who might even be able to start successfully with an OW (however, due to their personality, they would never do so). On the other hand, I know chaotic people who - because of their personality - should neither buy OW nor NW, since they can't get their own lives together (but exactly these people then start with a Pterinochilus and stow it away in the shoebox, since they didn't buy a terrarium).

That's how I see it...

By the way, what is a ladder system?

 

[YungRasputin]

This is at least the 2nd thread i have read with you gripping about old world venom. My point is still valid, kids in Asia who handle and deal with them everyday could care less about it and just deal with it and your over here comparing it to snake venom like its going to kill you.

i’ve talked about venom the entire time i’ve been on AB - outside of humidity it’s probably the subject i’ve talked about the most here - why? because it’s a discussion forum based around the keeping of venomous animals and it would stand to reason that venom would be a widely discussed subject

the example point as presented is fallacious argumentation and is a vague personal anecdote - why would i accept it? it seems silly to insist that I should in this respect and said comments are also over looking everything i’ve said within this thread and not engaging those points in any way

and yes, arachnid venom is comparable to snake venom as there is snake venom which has non-lethal symptoms just as there is snake venom which is lethal - just as there is with arachnids

both myself and i’m sure a good majority of the experienced keepers that participate on this forum have gone their entire history of keeping without being bit by one of their specimens - which is to say it’s entirely possible that even within captivity, with good practices, humans aren’t truly being exposed to the potential of a full venom yield bite from some OW species

and as previously stated there are many people who have allergies or sensitivities to various venoms - even with people whom aren’t allergic to bees or wasps there is still the potential of being allergic to marine, snake or arachnid venom

the issue per “the hobby” is - instead of having people build up muscle memory, reflexes, critical thinking, etc experience on feisty species with low venom toxicity first - are instead suggesting that advanced, medically significant species are good to start with as long as you do some half-“butt” “research” when a) the only way to know if you have an allergy or sensitivity to arachnid venom is to be envenomated and b) people aren’t seeing this point of fact as an open liability to “the hobby”

and further, if someone does have an allergy or sensitivity it’s not rightfully going to matter if it’s a “low venom” NW or “medically significant” OW

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

i’ve talked about venom the entire time i’ve been on AB - outside of humidity it’s probably the subject i’ve talked about the most here - why? because it’s a discussion forum based around the keeping of venomous animals and it would stand to reason that venom would be a widely discussed subject

the example point as presented is fallacious argumentation and is a vague personal anecdote - why would i accept it? it seems silly to insist that I should in this respect and said comments are also over looking everything i’ve said within this thread and not engaging those points in any way

and yes, arachnid venom is comparable to snake venom as there is snake venom which has non-lethal symptoms just as there is snake venom which is lethal - just as there is with arachnids

both myself and i’m sure a good majority of the experienced keepers that participate on this forum have gone their entire history of keeping without being bit by one of their specimens - which is to say it’s entirely possible that even within captivity, with good practices, humans aren’t truly being exposed to the potential of a full venom yield bite from some OW species

and as previously stated there are many people who have allergies or sensitivities to various venoms - even with people whom aren’t allergic to bees or wasps there is still the potential of being allergic to marine, snake or arachnid venom

the issue per “the hobby” is - instead of having people build up muscle memory, reflexes, critical thinking, etc experience on feisty species with low venom toxicity first - are instead suggesting that advanced, medically significant species are good to start with as long as you do some half-“butt” “research” when a) the only way to know if you have an allergy or sensitivity to arachnid venom is to be envenomated and b) people aren’t seeing this point of fact as an open liability to “the hobby”

and further, if someone does have an allergy or sensitivity it’s not rightfully going to matter if it’s a “low venom” NW or “medically significant” OW

Arachnid venom is comparable. Specifically tatantula venom is not, and tarantulas are the topic of the ladder system mentioned here.

 

[YungRasputin]

Arachnid venom is comparable. Specifically tatantula venom is not, and tarantulas are the topic of the ladder system mentioned here.

1) not every venomous snake is lethal
2) again over looking all the points I’ve presented to regurgitate the same mantra

 

[Vampyrbat]

I think it’s useful but I don’t think it’s something you absolutely have to go by as long as you know the t youre getting

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

1) not every venomous snake is lethal
2) again over looking all the points I’ve presented to regurgitate the same mantra

Oh my lord, yes I understand, but there are loads of lethal snakes, and no lethal tarantulas. I addressed your points previously, and all you did was repeat the exact same opinion/information. I have given up engaging your points.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

So today I want to talk about the ladder system, and my experience with it. Let me start off by saying I jumped from a rosea to a p. Metallica and obt sling. They are now 5 inches and 3.5 inches respectively. While i agree with the people that warned me not to get them that theyre not beginner ts, i personally have not had any problems so far. I have rehoused the pokie 5 times (mold issues+loose feeder) and while i learned a lot along the way, i took precautions and never came close to a bite or a dead t.

Now, i do not think everyone should be jumping into old worlds, and i wouldnt reccomend it personally. I felt ready for one, and i made sure my feeding, watering, and rehousing methods were as foolproof as possible. However, ive seen responsible, smart people be refused the option to even purchase an ow because "they aren't ready" and they need to buy a t they dont even want just to prepare. I think its a waste of time. If someone seems competent, and understands the risks and has a good plan, i see no problem with them buying a faster, stronger venomed t. I do understand though that not everyone is ready, and one wrong person attempting something dumb with a tarantula could ruin it for all of us.

What are your thoughts?

I think you about covered it good enough.

Some keepers have to work their way up to be prepared to rehouse faster T's and T's with stronger venom. Others are better prepared especially if they are used to working with animals that are fast like snakes, reptiles and giant centipedes for example.

Then there is the whole arachnophobia aspect such like myself that spent the time getting the experience to work with T's that are fast.

I recently rehoused my 3 inch P. irminia and that went super easy.

I just received this morning my L. striatus, (super easy), A. geniculata, (super easy), and a T. violaceus, (not easy but went smooth).

I still say that the hardest rehouses I have done was with my T. vagans. I never had more problems than with that butthead of a tarantula.

Also there are many variables. All keepers are not the same. Likewise all tarantulas are not the same.

If everyone was identical and tarantulas then we would only have one path to take.

 

[kingshockey]

i cant really say much i went from an a genic to an m balfouri while i was still learning to walk again after my stroke all rehouses are done one handed still since i never regained use of my left hand way i figure if your an adult did your proper research about the t before purchase then have at it knowing the risk of a bite/escape etc. and deal with it. to me there is nothing i love more than my really defensive ts.they are easier to deal with than a greeedy t that thinks all that moves is food not fun having a big genic running up the feeding tongs