clipping scorpion stingers

Brettus

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I know the evidence is strong-it is just hard as humans I spose to grasp the notion of no pain. I'm just looking at it this way-if you chuck a T onto a hot plate it is going to try and get off. Why? Surely something must be registering that something is wrong, and isn't that the true evolutionary function of pain? What is the difference between pain and "negative stimulus" as some people have made reference to? I am sure that the whole concept of pain, if they had one, would be deprived of the psychological input of human pain, but does pain necessarily have to be registered consciously?
 

PhilK

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Exactly. Humans tend to anthropomorphise things.

If a bacterium is thrown into an environment with, say, too low a pH (this is the bacterial equivalent of being throw onto a hotplate) it will also try and get away. Can it feel pain? Most certainly not.
 

Brettus

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If a bacterium is thrown into an environment with, say, too low a pH (this is the bacterial equivalent of being throw onto a hotplate) it will also try and get away. Can it feel pain? Most certainly not.
True, but people tend to forget that the gap between unicellular bacteria and invertebrates such as insects is infinitely greater than the gap between invertebrates and vertebrates. I think we can both agree that invertebrates, although they may not be capable of feeling pain, certainly can be stressed and will respond according to negative stimuli, that is, they sense something is wrong. For instance, if I tap my scorpions on the leg to make them walk, they may wave their claws. But if I tried to squash them, I have no doubt that the vigour of their response would be increased due to the increased stimuli.
 

PhilK

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Yeah, agreed. All I'm saying is that if it is possible for some organisms to react t adverse stimuli without the ability to feel pain, why could it not be possible for others? The gap between invertebrates and vertebrates (while not as huge as the one between unicellulars and inverts) is still a very large one.

My point was only that there are other ways to perceive and react to negative stimuli than pain.

Now I'm off to bed, as I've spent all day studying biology and arguing about it during my breaks hahaha
 

kotex

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-_-

obviously DOGs are a mans best friend
you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you
and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
they dont wag there tails when they are happy

and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them
well said Vietnamese510 i'm with u!
 

Vietnamese510

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ok im just saying but words will never injure someone unless your really messed up in the head

and besides i wouldnt care if 20 of you said something against me

plus i have one question when an ant bites a scorpions legs what does it do,
it tries to get it off of its leg becuase it hurts!
 

Thaedion

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For the record I do not endorse or consent to unnecessary animal alterations.

Now the crux of this argument is being missed, it is not the TELSON, it is the ACULEUS that is being clipped. As the original poster stated.

Clipping an aculeus back makes its needle sharp point blunt and less likely to penetrate the skin.

I had an emperor who I bought with an intact aculeus, but during the time I owned it, it must have missed a strike at a prey or a cage mate and broke its aculeus off halfway back. So it is a possibility that it can happen in the wild.

In the wild a broken aculeus would hinder an envenomation and may be detrimental to the scorpions ability to kill, but I seriously doubt it will hurt the scorpion. Here is a link to a macro gallery of scorpion parts http://pagesperso-orange.fr/eycb/scorpions/Gmacro.htm check out the telson / aculeus. The aculeus is little more than a tube for the venom to travel through, no flesh no nerves just a hollow point.
 
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Aztek

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Off topic

I heard Their stingers are partially metal.

Is this true?
 

Thaedion

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Off topic

I heard Their stingers are partially metal.

Is this true?
I heard that too, and a quick Google of "metal aculeus & scorpion" I found that There is ZINC 'accumulations in the pedipalp teeth, tarsal claws, cheliceral teeth and sting (aculeus) of the scorpion'
 

ArachnoYak

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Name calling

You're being a goose and not even thinking. You do not have to be something to know something about it. When I play fetch with my dog, I know he is having fun even though I'm not him. AMAZING!

Science is what is being discussed here, not feelings. If an animal doesn't exhibit classic signs of pain (and huge amounts of research has been done on pain), and has a simpler nervous system that seems incapable of processing pain.. the chances are it cannot feel pain. You can't argue with those facts, no matter how high on your horse you are.

The scorpions in question (as far as I remember) lived their lives fine without stingers, suggesting it wasn't that bad for them? (Again, for those people who still don't understand, I'm not saying it is good to clip stingers)

Brettus: pain is not the only way that things feel something is wrong. Far from it. Physiological reactions telling a cricket, say, that something has gone wrong could be chemicals released from ruptured cells or something. It doesn't need something akin to pain to know something isn't right.

As far as I'm aware all the studies on plants feeling pain were also bogus.. There were some physiological signs of stress, but once again it was chemical-related (as far as I remember)
Once again PhilK you have astounded me with your dogmatic views on pain. I'm not going to post here so I can call you a "goose", or even a duck for that matter. The great thing about science is it is in a constant state of change. Views change as new information is brought to light. For as many things as we are capable of testing, there are just as many that we are incapable of testing. You seem to think that invertebrates' reaction to stimuli lends validity to your claim that no pain is felt. You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony. Yes, I said "agony". Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain. You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.
 

Brettus

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The great thing about science is it is in a constant state of change. Views change as new information is brought to light. For as many things as we are capable of testing, there are just as many that we are incapable of testing. You seem to think that invertebrates' reaction to stimuli lends validity to your claim that no pain is felt. You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony. Yes, I said "agony". Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain.QUOTE]

I can see what your are saying. Certainly, when you spray an invert with bugspray, it does writhe around and appear to be in pain. Whether or not it registers in the invert nervous system as pain in the same sense as we feel it I am not sure, but surely it must constitute a negative response in some way, shape or form.

You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.
For the record, if you took the time to look at his profile, he is studying veterinary science. I can assure you that, at least in Australia, it is not a job you take up for the money, as there are far easier ways of making money. Why would he study this if he had a fundamental disrespect for the naturalworld? I think it unfair to say Phil has a lack of respect for the natural world just because he is voicing an opinion, an opinion backed up by science.
 
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PhilK

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1. You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony. Yes, I said "agony". Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain.

2. You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.
1. You obviously don't realise that (so far) we know all 'writhing in agony' is caused by nerves firing crazily. This is why when you spray a roach with bugspray it hits the deck and writhes around 'in agony'. It's motor nerves (not sensory nerves) are going crazy as it dies. This is why even after they are dead, they can still be twitching. If you read my link about the lobster in the pot, they say it thrashes around in the hot water as a mode of escape. Not as a side effect of pain.

2. :rolleyes: this is just plain funny. You don't even know me or anything about me and you manage to judge (over the internet, from a different country) my profound lack of respect for the natural world. Despite the fact I've been obsessed with animals from a very young age, love nothing more than watching Animal Planet all day and am studying to be a veterinarian. Yes, you're right.. I must really dislike the natural world.
As brettus stated (thanks) you are in no place to judge any of my values or morals. I am only stating my opinion as to whether or not inverts feel pain. An opinion, as brettus said, backed up by science. End rant.
 

ArachnoYak

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1. You obviously don't realise that (so far) we know all 'writhing in agony' is caused by nerves firing crazily. This is why when you spray a roach with bugspray it hits the deck and writhes around 'in agony'. It's motor nerves (not sensory nerves) are going crazy as it dies. This is why even after they are dead, they can still be twitching. If you read my link about the lobster in the pot, they say it thrashes around in the hot water as a mode of escape. Not as a side effect of pain.

2. :rolleyes: this is just plain funny. You don't even know me or anything about me and you manage to judge (over the internet, from a different country) my profound lack of respect for the natural world. Despite the fact I've been obsessed with animals from a very young age, love nothing more than watching Animal Planet all day and am studying to be a veterinarian. Yes, you're right.. I must really dislike the natural world.
As brettus stated (thanks) you are in no place to judge any of my values or morals. I am only stating my opinion as to whether or not inverts feel pain. An opinion, as brettus said, backed up by science. End rant.
1. As a zoologist, I realise more than you think PhilK. I've witnessed many things over the years. I quite enjoyed your lobster escape anology. Although there would be no need to thrash about and try to escape were the animal not in a great deal of pain. I think the one thing that differs between me and you is that while I studied I still knew how to enjoy the animals at the most basic level. Your love for animals has obviously been reduced to a scientific interest that does not allow for what is not written. I know where you stand, I have debated a similar issue with you in the scorpions on a stick thread. Brettus does not dictate whether or not I am in a position to judge. I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.
 

Aztek

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Lulz.

Just because he happens to know anatomical properties of certain animals does not mean he does not like them.

That's like saying a scientist who knows the Aurora lights are a bunch of electrons hitting the atmosphere is what they see instead of a beautiful show.
 

PhilK

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I think the one thing that differs between me and you is that while I studied I still knew how to enjoy the animals at the most basic level. Your love for animals has obviously been reduced to a scientific interest that does not allow for what is not written. I know where you stand, I have debated a similar issue with you in the scorpions on a stick thread. Brettus does not dictate whether or not I am in a position to judge. I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.
You must be the worlds best zoologist to know inverts feel pain despite all contrary evidence! Not that zoologists have anything really to do with anatomy or neuroscience, but we'll just gloss over that fact for your convenience.

Once again mate, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what my values are, especially in regards to my personal feelings/views on animals. For you to judge me by saying I clearly do not enjoy animals at a basic level, and to even go so far as saying I view animals with contempt is laughable (not to mention arrogant and plain stupid.) You have no idea what I enjoy about animals and I'll thank you to not shoot your mouth off under the impression that you do.

Yes, I'm fascinated by the scientific side of many animals (hence becoming a vet), but that does not mean I don't enjoy throwing a stick to my dog, or patting my cat.
 

Brettus

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You must be the worlds best zoologist to know inverts feel pain despite all contrary evidence! Not that zoologists have anything really to do with anatomy or neuroscience, but we'll just gloss over that fact for your convenience.

Once again mate, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what my values are, especially in regards to my personal feelings/views on animals. For you to judge me by saying I clearly do not enjoy animals at a basic level, and to even go so far as saying I view animals with contempt is laughable (not to mention arrogant and plain stupid.) You have no idea what I enjoy about animals and I'll thank you to not shoot your mouth off under the impression that you do.

Yes, I'm fascinated by the scientific side of many animals (hence becoming a vet), but that does not mean I don't enjoy throwing a stick to my dog, or patting my cat.
Well said!:worship: It is an exercise in shallowness to judge someone without even knowing them.

I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.
So you knew Phil in his younger days, did you?:?

Becoming a vet is surely a job that does not revolve around the scientific study of animals. Sure, you need to know the anatomy, but its is not knowing anatomy for anatomy's sake-it is for the purpose of helping animals.
 

skinheaddave

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This is an interesting debate, to be sure, with many cogent having been brought up. It pains me, therefore, to see it decending into an argument over personality, intent and qualifications. To date, it has not gotten any worse than I have seen in some published papers of questionable merit so I am not deleting anything. From this point on, however, any attacks against the character rather than the arguments of another will warrent disiplinary action.

Quite as an aside, has anyone thought to question whether the aculeus itself is innervated? I don't have many of the papers on anatomy so I can't say either way. Regardless, the debate on pain may continue in a civilized manner.

Cheers,
Dave
 

Kugellager

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Quite as an aside, has anyone thought to question whether the aculeus itself is innervated? I don't have many of the papers on anatomy so I can't say either way. Regardless, the debate on pain may continue in a civilized manner.

Cheers,
Dave
I have just assumed it was the shape it was to help keep the stinger gripped to the prey...much like those hand tools for grabbing onto logs have two inward facing spikes.

Like these tools: http://crosscutsaw.com/pg12imgs/peavey.gif

http://www.cmforge.com/forestry_tools/dyproducts.asp?product_id=219


Once the stinger is inserted the aculeus would also push up against the prey and make it more difficult to come out.

John
];')
 
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