Yeah, people keep talking about chopping off the telson... the OP stated that it was the aculeus(sp?), not the entire telson. Still really f'd up, but not nearly as harmful to the animal. A removed telson would probably equal death.
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u sound like real supporting the clipping the stinger, just don know y u are hereAll I said was they had different nervous system lay outs, and did not exhibit the same signs typical of pain in other animals. You don't have to be a scorpion to know that's true. It's like me saying I'm not a horse but I know they have a very well developed caecum.
butch: to me I still think that if an animal shows no signs of feeling pain (and there are lots of different ways to assess if pain is being felt) that is a fairly good indicator of the fact that they're not feeling it, especially not in the way we do. As for cephalopods, they're quite capable of losing legs and not exhibiting any signs of pain. Intelligence does not always equal the abaility to feel pain. This is all, of course, what I think is the case.. and like has been said, there could be a research breakthrough tomorrow that proves it allll wrong
To support Phil for a moment, I'm sure he would agree that it stresses the scorpions, and we all know prolonged stress can kill a bug, though I'm not sure this qualifies. Ain't that right Phil?You mean despite the fact I have mentioned numerous times I think it is wrong? Get out of it, you galah.
All I'm doing is bringing a scientific argument into the fact.. saying it probably doesn't hurt the scorpion. Not once did I say I support it (quite the opposite), not once did I say it's a good thing, and I'm certainly not about to go do it to my scorpions.
It depends upon how you classify pain I suppose. There is no doubt a cricket would have a complex series of physiological reactions to having its leg ripped off, abdomen burst etc. In humans pain is just a reaction telling us something is wrong. In the absence of definitive proof, I would suggest that the physiological response in invertebrates would have to be something akin to pain to tell the organism something is similarly wrong. I just find the notion that "it knows something is wrong" without a feeling of something like pain to be a bit vague.All I was saying is that inverts can't feel pain.
You're being a goose and not even thinking. You do not have to be something to know something about it. When I play fetch with my dog, I know he is having fun even though I'm not him. AMAZING!who has felt what a scorpion is feeling before?...
ok so NO ONE KNOW HOW IT FEELS WHEN IT GETS IT TELSON CLIPPED OFF
EDUCATED GUESS DONT MEAN <crap> WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOU ARE NOT INSIDE TO FEEL IT ARE YOU? NO
EDUCATED GUESS=YOU DONT KNOW FOR SURE YOUR JUST GUESSING
IF you disagree try clipping one of your scorpion telsons off and see that goes
and when you do let me know if it hurt you or not
Dogs also wag their tails when agitated, genius.-_-
obviously DOGs are a mans best friend
you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you
and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
they dont wag there tails when they are happy
and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them
I'm not even sure what you're saying here.. I assume you're saying that because you clipped the stinger, it would run around fast because it is in pain? You're actually suggesting running around fast means it hurts? My scorpion runs around fast when I lift the bark its sleeping under - do you think it is in pain?ok yes i am a genious i know but besides that
so i clipped the stinger what would the scorpion do?
run around really fast like its pancing correct?
what does that mean? its happy so its running around really fast
thats my policy too, i do have some that they can hold like millipedes (N. americanus) but never the good bugs that could hurt the kids. (or get hurt by the kids) the millipedes hang on real well and the kids arent apt to toss them loli have a good friend who does tons of schools,libraries,etc a year, and makes a good living at it, does take emps to shows.
the rule is, no holding..people can watch him hold them if he choses to do so, but everyone else is off limits.
he's never been stung..and neither has anyone else at his shows.
i havent been stung at any of the presentations i've done, either.
i cant imagine doing that to a creature.:wall:
In reference to the first point, it is a big generalisation that vertebrates are long-lived and invertebrates not so. Take tarantulas for example-many are capable of outliving a whole host of vertebrates. The oldest lion may make 20in capativity, whereas 20 seems to be a relatively easily achieved age for some species of T. On the other hand, shrews, a mammalian vertebrate, can live for less than one year. If the logic is that longer-lived animals should feel pain, then why don't T's.1. The evolutionary function of pain.
In vertebrates pain is thought to be an important educational tool. Vertebrates are relatively long-lived creatures and learning shapes much of their behaviour. Learning from pain (and pleasure) plays a vital role in the development of their behaviour.
Almost all invertebrates are short-lived and their behaviour is thought to be largely genetically determined. Therefore, there is less evolutionary pressure selecting for the evolution of pain in this group of animals.
2. The neural capacity of invertebrates.
Except for the cephalopods, invertebrates have small nervous systems, consisting of many small brains (ganglia). Because of the small number of neurons and the distributed organization of their nervous systems, invertebrates are thought to have limited cognitive capacity. High cognitive capacity is thought to be a prerequisite for the development of an emotional response.
3. The behaviour of invertebrates
Invertebrates show few, if any, of the behaviours that we would recognize as evidence of emotion. Many invertebrates are cannibalistic, and many eat their young when given the chance. Most have no social behaviour. Although they can respond vigorously to noxious stimuli, even this response is inconsistent. Insects, for example, will continue with normal activity even after severe injury. An insect walking with a crushed tarsus (lower leg) will continue applying it to the ground with undiminished force. Locusts will writhe when sprayed with DDT. However, they will also continue feeding while being eaten by a praying mantid.