clarification: H. hainanum and H. schmidti DCF

EDED

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
554
Hello all,

In the past I've read many false information regarding Haplopelma schmidti and Haplopelma hainanum. Such as:1. schmidti having two color forms and can be found in the same egg sac and 2. that hainanum is different than schmidti DCF. I've even made a mistake of buying multiple of same spiders believing the dealer's misinformed ad in the past as well. Now i know that ALL those information is WRONG from talking to Volker von Wirth (i think everyone knows who he is) about this issue. Apparently Volker has told people about what im about to write below and he is tired of repeating it, so he told me I can go ahead and let everyone know and share the info, I hope i dont make an ass out of myself doing this as i feel awkward I'm not a taxonomist. Also im afraid of other taxonomists asking tough questions but come on, this is from Volker i think he has examined 100s of these two species, he knows. LOL

so here it goes

Information from Volker:
There are no color forms of Haplopelma schmidti in nature from what he knows of. Every supposed DarkColorForm schmidti that he examined turned out to be Haplopelma hainanum of Hainan Island of China.

Taxonomic differences;
schmidti and hainanum share similar structures except this little difference in spermatheca shape.
schmidti juvie


schmidti female from Phil Messenger's website and his photo
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/spermgal-Haplopelma.htm

hainanum juvie


hainanum adult

another different adult



H. schmidti has a deeper dip in the middle and the whole spermatheca is a bit smaller. H. hainanum has a higher spermatheca with a less of dip. Volker is quoted for saying 'trapezoid' shape of spermatheca of hainanum. Even at juvie size (the photo was from 4'' LS juvies) you can distinguish.

so, spermatheca shape and darker coloration especially after a molt should tell you how to tell the difference between H. schmidti and H. hainanum.

in the males of H. schmidti and H. hainanum...again the only slight difference is that the male of hainanum lack the keels that H. schmidti have. Keels look like two shallow long bumps on the bolus. I have sent my WC H. hainanum male to Volker and he took some photos and that's what he has found, i cant use his pictures that he sent me i dont have copy right.

However since we are talking about color forms, people may ask that hainanum supposed to be jet black with a white mustache. I heard that too in the past but, just because the spider is not all black and has a brown abdomen make it a color form of schmidti.

think about it; if animal A and animal B are the same species but ONLY different in colors. How come the spermatheca shape is different? they are different species.

Also, I have 7 WC Haplopelma hainanum in my collection and some CB slings, so far i can only trust WC specimens who knows what might have occured with CB stock when everyone was misinformed for years. There are very slight differences between spiders that i keep. Keep in mind that is true for all species, buy 10 different WC H. lividum not all of them are EXACTLY the same in coloration and pattern. So, just because you saw a specimen labeled hainanum that looked different than your specimen, dont think you have a color form of schmidti. The easiest thing to do is to check the spermatheca OR send it off to a taxonomist.

i hope this helps everyone and hopefully we wont see any more DCF mislabelling.
 

Varden

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
704
Thanks to both you and Volker! I'll make a note to start checking my spermatheca. :)
 

common spider

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
484
I would like to see pictures of the 2 color forms from the same egg sack.That would be very neat to see.


Does anyone have a pic of this?
 

billopelma

Arachnolord
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
604
Good post! Haven't seen any info on this in a while, may be it will start some new discussion.
I don't know how extensively Volker has worked on this... but is this info intended to eliminate the existence of H. schmidti DCF (or other CF's), or only suggest that the majority of those in the hobby are actually H. hainanum?
Not trying to put you on the spot Brian. Volker, feel free to chime in any time, you won't have to repeat it again for my benefit, I promise...
And when are you ever going to publish?

I would like to see pictures of the 2 color forms from the same egg sack.That would be very neat to see.
According to the first post, that is considered to be invalid. Would be neat to see though.


Bill
 

syndicate

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
4,512
great thread man.thanks for posting this.i finally was able to get 3 slings of supposed h.schmidti dcf last weekend.so i should be labeling these as hainanum now?i really hate how all the ids on haps in the hobby are so messed up.
 

EDED

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
554
Bill, i remember him saying he has ''never'' seen any color forms of schmidti in the wild and ''all'' of DCF in the hobby he examined turned out to be hainanum. So i think there are only schmidti and hainanum, with no color forms.

Syndicate, yeah i know what you mean.

it will take a long time to change scientific names in the hobby and in the trade (dealers). Not just Haplopelma, i just found this out months ago from Richard Gallon's post at the T-store forum that B. ruhnaui is B. albiceps. I wouldnt have known that a year ago, apperently the change was made awhile back. I buy whatever the dealer sells, dealers buy whatever the exporter sells...so I can see how it could take along time, for example if i walk by some well known dealer's talbe at a show and say, 'hey that spider is no long A, its B', he will probably nod and say ok but he won't change it just because some stranger said so. Again if a dealer tells the exporter hey you got it all wrong, the exporter wont listen either...from reading other thread/debate that's going on now, dealer/exporter/taxonomist/hobbyist need to work together efficiently,,but how i have no clue.

until then you just have to educate yourself by asking and reading. DIY (do it yourself) DW (do work) lol i love that show Rob and Big. I am learning things everyday about breeding and a little bit of taxo before i get bored, but the info is out there and there are alot of friendly people in Europe that will help you.

found this old thread, ive read it before but still good to read
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=51537&highlight=haplopelma+description one of Volker's replies in there has a free downloadable pdf file for the description paper, its in german but you can find a free translator online. save it. It has good info like how to tell apart Asian Genus and etc.

In the end dont you research everything before you buy a house or a car? do the same for your spiders. Plus it makes the hobby more interesting than watching spiders eat, sh*t, molt,etc. like 3 years ago i bought a CB H.hercules what a mistake that was LOL i know better now.

sorry for blabbering! but im tired of seeing these replies to photo ID threads.."are you sure?" and always comes with this; ;) or this; :rolleyes: but i totally understand where they are coming from, thats the sad part lol, so we should try harder to educate ourselves then hobby IDs wont be so messy and we wouldnt need photo ID threads eventually,,,dont you think so?
 

billopelma

Arachnolord
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
604
i remember him saying he has ''never'' seen any color forms of schmidti in the wild
Brian, thanks for the clarification. I assumed my H. schmidti was such because it 'looked' like the classic gold color form. But each molt it's legs get darker and the id gets more questionable. That and it absolutely trashes it's molts, brat.

Not to get too off topic but I also seem to recall someone saying that B. ruhnaui (albiceps) was being moved to Aphonopelma...

Bill
 

syndicate

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
4,512
Bill, i remember him saying he has ''never'' seen any color forms of schmidti in the wild and ''all'' of DCF in the hobby he examined turned out to be hainanum. So i think there are only schmidti and hainanum, with no color forms.

Syndicate, yeah i know what you mean.

it will take a long time to change scientific names in the hobby and in the trade (dealers). Not just Haplopelma, i just found this out months ago from Richard Gallon's post at the T-store forum that B. ruhnaui is B. albiceps. I wouldnt have known that a year ago, apperently the change was made awhile back. I buy whatever the dealer sells, dealers buy whatever the exporter sells...so I can see how it could take along time, for example if i walk by some well known dealer's talbe at a show and say, 'hey that spider is no long A, its B', he will probably nod and say ok but he won't change it just because some stranger said so. Again if a dealer tells the exporter hey you got it all wrong, the exporter wont listen either...from reading other thread/debate that's going on now, dealer/exporter/taxonomist/hobbyist need to work together efficiently,,but how i have no clue.

until then you just have to educate yourself by asking and reading. DIY (do it yourself) DW (do work) lol i love that show Rob and Big. I am learning things everyday about breeding and a little bit of taxo before i get bored, but the info is out there and there are alot of friendly people in Europe that will help you.

found this old thread, ive read it before but still good to read
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=51537&highlight=haplopelma+description one of Volker's replies in there has a free downloadable pdf file for the description paper, its in german but you can find a free translator online. save it. It has good info like how to tell apart Asian Genus and etc.

In the end dont you research everything before you buy a house or a car? do the same for your spiders. Plus it makes the hobby more interesting than watching spiders eat, sh*t, molt,etc. like 3 years ago i bought a CB H.hercules what a mistake that was LOL i know better now.

sorry for blabbering! but im tired of seeing these replies to photo ID threads.."are you sure?" and always comes with this; ;) or this; :rolleyes: but i totally understand where they are coming from, thats the sad part lol, so we should try harder to educate ourselves then hobby IDs wont be so messy and we wouldnt need photo ID threads eventually,,,dont you think so?
well put man.i agree 100%
once these guys i got over here molt i will try and get some spermatheca shots and compare to these you've posted
 

Pociemon

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
911
I have several of both schmidti and hainanum. The only time they look like eachother is when they are slings, there they need to be kept apart, because they look alike at that point.
 

dactylus

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
354
I have several of both schmidti and hainanum. The only time they look like eachother is when they are slings, there they need to be kept apart, because they look alike at that point.
I'm looking for slings of both species presently.
 
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