CITES suspends trade in Mexican species

[l4nsky]

My understanding is that,anything described as "sp",has no species name.So,a genus of say...Grammastola sp blue,they have no idea if that is the species from that genus that is CITES listed.

Think genus...sp...white,or red, or Santa Catalina.....they claim they have no species name,so it may or may not be on CITES.Therefore,all imports without a proper genus and species ID are suspect.

Again,im just relaying what i was told from a highly regarded importer into the US.And they are highly regarded here on AB.

I understand the concept, but there are more genera not listed on the CITES appendices then are listed. Seems like very shaky ground for USFW to attempt to stand on by issuing a blanket ban. Plus, where's the notice from USFW or US Customs?

 

[NMTs]

I want to see if anyone can further clarify this, but I believe even European imports to the US will be effected as CITES defines trade as "export, re-export, import, and introduction from the sea" and USFW specifically states in the notice I linked above that the US complies with all CITES recommendations for trade suspension.

For example, Brachypelma spp have been CITES II for awhile, so they've needed CITES paperwork for any border crossings for member states, regardless of whether they were coming directly from Mexico or by way of Europe. If I'm understanding this suspension correctly, a European import of a Brachypelma sp endemic to or exported from Mexico would be considered a re-export under the convention, which classifies it as trade, which is suspended.

Edit: clarified a bit.

The way I read this, only trade done directly by or with Mexico is suspended.



The reasoning that because a certain species is from Mexico and therefore it cannot be traded regardless of whether or not Mexico is actually involved in the commerce is incorrect, IMO. The intention of this suspension seems to be to punish Mexico for not complying with their orders, rather than an effort to protect any specific fauna of flora - therefore, import or export of Mexican wildlife from countries other than Mexico should still be allowed.

 

[l4nsky]

The way I read this, only trade done directly by or with Mexico is suspended.

View attachment 442268

The reasoning that because a certain species is from Mexico and therefore it cannot be traded regardless of whether or not Mexico is actually involved in the commerce is incorrect, IMO. The intention of this suspension seems to be to punish Mexico for not complying with their orders, rather than an effort to protect any specific fauna of flora - therefore, import or export of Mexican wildlife from countries other than Mexico should still be allowed.

I guess the point we need clarification on is the term re-export and what exactly it means.

 

[mack1855]

Plus, where's the notice from USFW or US Customs?

Again...just what i was told by a legit importer into the US.But,knowing what happened in 2018 with the Poecilotheria genus,in regards to the Sri Lankan species from that genus,i would not be surprised.We,as keepers,would not be informed immediately,but anyone planning on a shipment would be first to know about it.

I guess the point we need clarification on is the term re-export and what exactly it means

And thats going to take awhile to filter down to us.However,if you are bringing in T,s for a business,they will know pretty darn qiuck.

The people that bring in $2000US into the US,are on top of things,and have a direct line to USFW.

 

[pocock1899]

I do wildlife import and export for a living and work with USFWS, CBP, CBP/Ag, FDA, etc.,...
This is a not the end of the world for Brachypelma/Tliltcatl or Aphonopelma. It just means that no CITES tarantulas are coming out of Mexico. While we do get a lot of spiders from Mexico, most of the Brachypelma coming into the US are coming from the EU at present, I know this for a fact because I have access to shipping records through my work that "well known and highly respected" importer/dealers don't have unless they file a Freedom of Information Act request with the government.

So if there is a shortage or a price hike, it's likely artificially induced, or because suddenly everyone goes out and buys up all of the Brachypelma that they can find, or maybe the vendors think this is a good time to capitalize on people afraid of a shortage of supply (remember toilet paper at the beginning of Covid?). Besides, anyone who breeds Brachy's knows that a couple of domestic egg sacs can go a long way towards. Last time I bred B. hamorii, I was a little late opening the sac, so there was higher mortality than there should have been, but there were still over 500 survivors after the second post sac shed. I gave a ton away and still had to cull some. The US hobby can EASILY accommodate an issue like this, if they'll concentrate on breeding, instead of just collecting. This is just a bump in the road, it's certainly not a serious obstacle to the hobby as a whole.

As far as the export vs. re-export, what matters is who issues the CITES document that the shipment comes in with. Anything captive bred in EU will come in on an EU CITES export permit. It will present no problem to getting them into the US.
If the CITES spiders were sent to the EU on a Mexican CITES certificate, then lived there and were later sent to the US, they would still come in on an EU Re-export permit. Again, no problem. If you were told different, you were told wrong.

However, until Mexico and the CITES Directorate come to an agreement, nothing is going to be allowed into the US on either a Mexican Export or Re-export permit.

As far as spiders with the "sp." in their "scientific name", that has nothing to do with this. If a USFWS Wildlife Inspector has a question as to whether a species is covered under CITES, they will go to the CITES website and look it up. If it's there, it will say that it's covered. If it's not there, it's not covered. In the case of Brachypelma, the entire genus is covered. So if you have Brachypelma sp., it needs a CITES, same for any Poecilottheria sp. Part of the reason they list entire genus in some cases is that they all look so similar that it's hard to tell the regulated species from the non-regulated ones. Consquently, all crocodilians are listed, even though the Alligator is in good shape. CITES can be a complicated can of worms when you get down to the actual working, and implementation.

The :USFWS tries to be clear on this stuff, but they aim much of their import/export notifications at brokers and actual importer/exporters. It doesn't always filter down to the actual consumer. Honestly, most people don't care.
I'm linking the actual Notice to the Import Export Community that we were sent. If you have more questions, post them here and I'll try to answer them.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

I do wildlife import and export for a living and work with USFWS, CBP, CBP/Ag, FDA, etc.,...
This is a not the end of the world for Brachypelma/Tliltcatl or Aphonopelma. It just means that no CITES tarantulas are coming out of Mexico. While we do get a lot of spiders from Mexico, most of the Brachypelma coming into the US are coming from the EU at present, I know this for a fact because I have access to shipping records through my work that "well known and highly respected" importer/dealers don't have unless they file a Freedom of Information Act request with the government.

So if there is a shortage or a price hike, it's likely artificially induced, or because suddenly everyone goes out and buys up all of the Brachypelma that they can find, or maybe the vendors think this is a good time to capitalize on people afraid of a shortage of supply (remember toilet paper at the beginning of Covid?). Besides, anyone who breeds Brachy's knows that a couple of domestic egg sacs can go a long way towards. Last time I bred B. hamorii, I was a little late opening the sac, so there was higher mortality than there should have been, but there were still over 500 survivors after the second post sac shed. I gave a ton away and still had to cull some. The US hobby can EASILY accommodate an issue like this, if they'll concentrate on breeding, instead of just collecting. This is just a bump in the road, it's certainly not a serious obstacle to the hobby as a whole.

As far as the export vs. re-export, what matters is who issues the CITES document that the shipment comes in with. Anything captive bred in EU will come in on an EU CITES export permit. It will present no problem to getting them into the US.
If the CITES spiders were sent to the EU on a Mexican CITES certificate, then lived there and were later sent to the US, they would still come in on an EU Re-export permit. Again, no problem. If you were told different, you were told wrong.

However, until Mexico and the CITES Directorate come to an agreement, nothing is going to be allowed into the US on either a Mexican Export or Re-export permit.

As far as spiders with the "sp." in their "scientific name", that has nothing to do with this. If a USFWS Wildlife Inspector has a question as to whether a species is covered under CITES, they will go to the CITES website and look it up. If it's there, it will say that it's covered. If it's not there, it's not covered. In the case of Brachypelma, the entire genus is covered. So if you have Brachypelma sp., it needs a CITES, same for any Poecilottheria sp. Part of the reason they list entire genus in some cases is that they all look so similar that it's hard to tell the regulated species from the non-regulated ones. Consquently, all crocodilians are listed, even though the Alligator is in good shape. CITES can be a complicated can of worms when you get down to the actual working, and implementation.

The :USFWS tries to be clear on this stuff, but they aim much of their import/export notifications at brokers and actual importer/exporters. It doesn't always filter down to the actual consumer. Honestly, most people don't care.
I'm linking the actual Notice to the Import Export Community that we were sent. If you have more questions, post them here and I'll try to answer them.

Thank you so much for the clarification. This is immensely helpful.

 

[Liquifin]

How can you be sure of that? I was under the impression that there is not a lot of captive breeding of any tarantulas going on in the US. And I know there certainly isn’t here in Canada.

Are you a tarantula breeder or vendor? There is a lot of captive breeding in the US when it comes to the staple Brachypelma species, it's just that the captive breeding is usually from people who are not known or people who are private breeders. Brachyeplma is a hobby stable and one of the most common genus in the entire US. Everyone who is breeding or selling has some sort species of Brachypelma as they are beginner friendly and usually recommended from many.

Look, Canada isn't my specialty when it comes to the market or breeders. But from what I've seen, they don't come close to the US (no offense).

 

[mack1855]

@pocock1899 ..thanks for the info.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I'm not the brightest star in the sky. If you use the strongest telescope you might be able to see a very small amount of my light.

With that said, in the U.S. don't we already have a plethora of captive bred Tliltocatl and Bracypelma genus already?

I really don't know. I know this will hurt. I can see prices sky rocketing with captive bred Mexican T's.

 

[F1tarantula]

So then how long will brachypelma be banned from Exporting for?

 

[NMTs]

So then how long will brachypelma be banned from Exporting for?

Depends on how long it takes the Mexican government to satisfy the requirements of CITES. It could be weeks, months, or years.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Well China and USA are number 1 and 2 respectively of all countries buying exotics legally and illegally Im not surprised.
As long as there is a flourishing illegal market crap happens.

Agreed 100%. All the "banning" of anything does is beget a flourishing black market. You wouldn't know it by the big city party scene, but cocaine is technically illegal here in the US. Thanks to extraordinarily loosened security at our Southern border at the moment, if there's money to be made with these spiders, then we're very soon to see an absolute flooding of the market with them.

 

[Marcostaco]

So I guess we’ll only be able to get Brachypelma spp. that are bred and supplied locally. And since to my knowledge there is little to none of that happening in Canada, I guess that means I’m out of luck.


How can you be sure of that? I was under the impression that there is not a lot of captive breeding of any tarantulas going on in the US. And I know there certainly isn’t here in Canada.

Here in Canada, definitely there's not a lot of Brachypelma breeding happening but that's because they're so abundant and the market is so saturated with them. Large scale importers bring them in ; in tens of thousands at a time so there's really not that much reason for people to be breeding them.

If push comes to shove, I know people who can successfully breed them in a heartbeat including myself.

 

[LucN]

Well, this is definitely unfortunate news for us Brachy enthusiasts. I still have this long-term goal of owning at least 1 female from all of the 8 species in the genus. If the Brachy supplies do dry up (Doubtful, but you never know) when I get an opportunity to acquire more Ts, I see it as an incentive to branch out to other genera such as Aphonopelma (US native ones, at least), Grammostola, Eupalaestrus, Chromatopelma, etc... Maybe eventually I'll also dive into Acanthoscurria, Lasiodora, Pamphobeteus, Xenesthis, etc... Who knows ?

Bottom line is that it's definitely not going to last forever, so if you miss out of your prized Brachy now, you ought to be able to own one a few years later down the road. Remember, the biggest asset to keeping Ts is patience. If you wait long enough, you'll be rewarded

 

[Matt Man]

there are plenty of captive bred Brachys in both the US and Europe. Unsure about some of the Aphonopelma (bicoloratum, mooreae, diamondback sp...) so those may take a hit, and they are already pricey.
The sad part is there is an entire, legal facility in Mexico that breeds Brachy's from pure, 100% traceable bloodlines. It will probably hurt their business and the end result will be more smuggling which is the exact opposite
of the laws intention

 

[Pyrelitha]

Old idiots who cant use smart phones deciding they rule the world... CITES should be disbanded imo, honestly im so annoyed at how bad a world government style panels are. I really wish the USA was an isolationist country.

 

[Frogdaddy]

Is this a surprise? Mexico is an impoverished 3rd world country where the government is in the hands of criminal cartels. I would be willing to bet in some capacity that government officials were making money hand over fist selling the endangered totobata to Asia.

I didn’t assume, I read the article too. My reply is a global one, not specific to this post.

I know all nations’ animals and plants who are harvested feel the pressure of the world’s demands esp from China and USA..

Now if you think that’s not true then there are some law enforcement officials and scientists you should speak with.

Well at least the US keeps the exotics for pets where they may have the chance to reproduce. China just eats them or just parts of them

 

[bobbybrown9969]

so it was ok for some but not all ?
why cant i pay a local Mexican boy to breed an ship me insects ?

has nothing to do with ethics, this is solely political .

 

[campj]

Unsure about some of the Aphonopelma (bicoloratum, mooreae, diamondback sp...) so those may take a hit, and they are already pricey.

As far as I'm aware, Aphonopelma pallidum is the only CITES listed Aphonopelma.

 

[TechnoGeek]

I'm not sure if another thread has been made about this, I'm curious to see what other people think of it.

The story:

As of March 27th 2023, CITES has banned the import and export of all species from Mexico. To be clear, this doesn't mean you can't import Mexican species, for example you can still import a Mexican invert from Europe if it was bred in Europe. However, if a non-Mexican invert, say an old world tarantula was bred in Mexico you can't import it anymore…

What we can do as a community:

I think this is the most important part. This decision is very likely to drive prices up, and this hints at a problem we have in the US and especially in Canada; that there simply aren't enough people breeding these animals. To my understanding, the market is much healthier in Europe.

Previously, I was of the mindset that it's only worth breeding a tarantula if it's in high demand or if there aren't too many of them in the hobby. This completely changed my mind, I'll be breeding every single female I have, and I'll be giving away all my mature males for free to breeders that I know and keep in touch with. I think the only way we can secure the future of our hobby is by making sure that we have as many of these animals within the country as humanly possible, to the point that importing them is no longer needed. Because there'll always be stupid decision makers with too much time on their hands ready to make things much more difficult for us.

You can stop reading here if you want.

Opinion:

The decision is extremely stupid and arbitrary because it isn't designed to save the animals subject to the ban (which is literally everything coming from Mexico). It's meant as some sort of silly revenge or punishment because CITES wasn't happy with how much effort the Mexican government was putting into protecting a porpoise. Now, I'm all for doing anything to preserve the wild populations of any animal, but this just ain't how you do it.

CITES, as a regulatory body, isn't good at what they do. In fact, they are so ineffective that they might be more trouble than they're worth. CITES has failed to stop the sharp decline in animal populations, they failed to stop illegal trade in several species, and their structure makes them inherently bad at saving the animals. The only kind of trade that they succeed in limiting seems to be legal and well regulated trade in captive animals. Contrary to popular belief, keeping animals in captivity doesn't have to be bad for the wild survival of the species, in fact captive breeding programs are an important part of species conversation.

A few case studies examples CITES work and found them pretty ineffective:

“CITES is very limited in its potential effectiveness as a conservation tool. Not only does it fail to address issues of habitat loss, but it also fails to create mechanisms to control the supply of wildlife products or any direct means to influence consumer demand. As it is currently structured, CITES operates primarily as a restrictive mechanism, rather than an enabling one. Implicit in its existing structure is an assumption that all trade is somehow bad for conservation unless proven otherwise. Measures taken under CITES therefore tend to emphasize limitations on trade rather than ways to facilitate trade that may ultimately enhance the status of wild species.”

“How well did listings on CITES Appendices I, II and III perform for these case studies? The only species that seems to have benefited from an Appendix 1 listing is the African elephant. However, as discussed above, this listing may not be economically sustainable in the long term. Appendix I listings have not stopped illegal commercial exploitation of rhinos, tigers, and bears.”

“The Appendix II down-listing appears to have worked for the southern white rhino, but this probably has more to do with good domestic management and field protection than to CITES.”

“An Appendix II listing did not appear to work for the African elephant, and the listing of the

American black bear for 'look-alike' reasons has been largely ignored by traders of bear products”

“Similarly, an Appendix IIl listing of the American black bear seemed to have little positive effect.”