Can of worms in here ;) - Priceing low to help the hobby - ya right

[KenTheBugGuy]

So I know that there will be some that might attack for this post but it really bothers me so I am just putting it out there. Feel free to comment

There are people out there that tell me they are pricing slings low to try and bring the price down to help the hobby. They also say they are fighting the dealers cause we charge too much. Well I hate to say it but dealers are not rich I wish we were.

When you sell a sling for a ridiculously low price you are not helping the hobby you hurting the hobby. Let me explain. If people start posting a tarantula that is worth a decent amount for a super low price what you are doing is driving the price of that species down that is true. The problem with this is you are hurting that species. The reason some species are in the hobby is because people want to breed them because they are worth something. If they start to be worth nothing then nobody wants to breed them and the dealers can't take care of them and make a profit so people are stuck giving slings away as the only way to get rid of them and nobody wants to take the time or trouble to keep breeding that species.

I am sure some will disagree but when you have to pay a bunch for an adult and the babies are worth nothing who is going to want to buy the adults to breed? There is nothing wrong with bringing prices down a little cause you have a bunch but thinking you are helping the hobby is just self centered.

What you are doing is making that species worth less and less people will breed it in the long run. Thats one reason you don't see tons of rose hair babies out there is because they are not worth breeding but 1000's of adult rose hairs are sold every year. Just think before making accusations that you are helping the hobby. Just say you can't take care of all these slings and you want to make a quick dollar if you hurt or help the hobby. Nothing wrong with that but don't think you are doing it in the name of a good cause.

People also think this is a 1 level business and it is not. There are breeders out there that are trying to run a business too that are usually just not as public. Those breeders that sell to dealers get very little for their slings as it is. If you drop a species on the board for 3 dollars imagine what you just did to a breeder that wanted to wholesale them to a dealer for 3 dollars.....you just made all their work worth nothing.

now before anyone says it, yes, it does affect my business also and I do not deny that it aggravates me. When I see something selling for a 3rd of its cost because someone bred something they don't feel like taking care of till they can sell them all really aggravates me. I just bought so and so species for 10 dollars each and then a hobbyist goes on the board and sells them for 10 dollars each....how the heck am I supposed to sell mine now? Anyways I know I am opening myself up for attack here but hey its a good topic anyways I am sure it will be fun

 

[skippy]

well, i agree with you ken

 

[gromgrom]

I agree with you Ken.
And I think, like you said, its a mix of
1. they dont have the resources to take care of 80-2000 slings
2. they want to help the hobby in their own way.

you have to pay for overhead, your website, and some shipping out of your pocket, not to mention all the heat lamps, food, and losses you take at your own T and scorp ranch

But its good you posted this, so that others can see what is happening. I've noticed it, but I didn't think anything of it besides 1. or maybe 2.

 

[crawltech]

Good call ken, i agree!

 

[cacoseraph]

well, aside from the fact if i ever turn into a baby machine again i am just going to vector everything through you, ken... (heh)





i think that people, dealers and breeders included, need to understand THERE IS NO FAIR MARKET VALUE on anything. it is an illusion. it is a very solid and nearly real illusion for huge markets like cars and stuff... but i mean, look at houses... in the USA the "value" dang near tripled then halved in a period of 10-20 years. that is, in part, because the only value something truly has is what people attach to it

sure, if you do an import you can figure out down to the dollar how much each bug costs... but that is not their inherent value. it is the value that you have attached to them. i suspect it is because you expect to make a profit off of them (of course, i mean... that is how biz works!). the problem is that not everyone places the same value on them. i have sold things for dimes on the dollar of dealer prices... because i don't ever want to get stuck with 1500+ individually caged bugs again... but i am good enough to get a lot of babies some times. for me, the value of the bugs is quite low... they are crapping up my joint and i need them gone. could i have gone to dealers and finagled some kinda deal? sure... tbh i didn't want to bother them with my stuff before, but now i have a dealer i am quite fond of (=P) and want to help him make his biz work



do i ever think everyone will stop underselling the dealers? no way in hell! basically what i think the dealers need to do is offer stuff that a hobbyist seller can't match. DOA guarantee, support, GOOD care guidelines, the knowledge the dealer never deals in brown bagged stuff... THAT is your real selling points, imo. not prices... cuz you can't compete with hobbyist sellers and really... shouldn't try to


p.s. i have an idea i am PMing you =P


oh and p.p.s. i just got my camera that i left at the http://www.gbuenterprises.com/ facility... i forgot we put my headlamp on your little one. cute!

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

I agree with you Ken.
And I think, like you said, its a mix of
1. they dont have the resources to take care of 80-2000 slings
.

Well one thing I think is if you did not want to take care of those babies why did you hatch them out in the first place? Also there is usually a dealer out there that will pick them up for some amount even if it is trade.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

help

cacoseraph

I agree with your post for sure and don't think its horrible that a hobbyist sells stuff for low what I was saying really bugs me are the ones that tell me they are doing it to help the hobby. It does aggrivate me to see low prices but there is nothing I can do about that and it will always happen.

 

[cacoseraph]

ahhh you are talking about intentions and not the actions. i got ya!



let me go on record for the hobbyists with more babies than time: it is WAY easier to send a bulk package to a dealer and get a sweet adult or three of something in return that to mess around with all the shipping to individuals. if you NEED money, idk what to say... but if you are looking to save yourself some hassle... hit up a few dealers first!

 

[ametan]

Personally, I'd rather like to see prices stay relatively higher on certain Ts. It helps to ensure that people will actually research what it is they are getting themselves into.

 

[gromgrom]

Well one thing I think is if you did not want to take care of those babies why did you hatch them out in the first place? Also there is usually a dealer out there that will pick them up for some amount even if it is trade.

they may be just out for a buck

i myself am getting into breeding pink toes and emperors, because i know people nearby and pet stores that will buy them from me. Aannnnnddd if I need to get rid of some still, sell them to a dealer or on here. (since i know how you feel now, I'll probably pick you or T's Inc, since they do shows nearby)

 

[Cowin8579]

This is a tough situation for sure. I can't relate to the tarantulas at the moment, who can have 100 slings! What are some ways to truly fix the problem? True low balling reduces everyone's potential income certainly, but regarding these low prices... I think for certain species, if we all breed, this is going to be a huge issue. When I wanted my first B. jacksoni, they were listed as 35$ for adults, I waited until I found a breeder who had them for 20$. I now have almost 80 B. jacksoni. I posted them for a steal awhile back, and only one person responded. If a top end dealer such as yourself purchased them from me, for the sake of business I would only get so much. In the end, I can hardly get rid of them.. Maybe the dealer who have a hard time selling the quantity? No disrespect intended for the animal. Same thing happens with communal arboreal species like P. murinus.

It would be unreasonable to expect the top dealers to chase the new species, only to fight to continue business. Within two years of selling a new species of slings, it is possible to expect the buyer to have slings for sale from the now adult species. (typically) We could sell the slings back to the original dealer for resale or something?

To expand all business, some sort of education needs to be broadcast to reduce the misconceptions so that more people are open to these animals as "pets". The market could me much larger. At a reptile show, there may only be 1-2 stands that have inverts. Only a certain % of the population would even go to a reptile show. Long term, issues will need to be figured out to truly expand business. I know you have mentioned your goals before Ken, and they are good goals.

 

[cacoseraph]

Personally, I'd rather like to see prices stay relatively higher on certain Ts. It helps to ensure that people will actually research what it is they are getting themselves into.

it can... maybe

but there is never a shortage of ppl with more money than common sense. (that is really a market i MUST tap into, btw hehehe)


search up some of the P. metallica threads on here... and consider the ones from like 2 years ago are from when slings were still like $200 or so



but you are absolutely correct for the stupid poor... it is a barrier for them, most of the time, to make a casual purchase

 

[Redneck]

So your saying that if a someone has a SP that is not imported much they shouldnt breed them & sell them to others? Is this just pointed to any SP?

I get what you are saying about the G. rosea.. I had my first one drop an egg sac.. I sure didnt think I was going to get rid of all the babies.. Hopefully it is not the same way with my A. hentzi!

 

[codykrr]

im going to assume this is regarding some extremely cheap P. metallicas..right?

i hear where your coming from ken. but you have to understand not everyone is there to make a living. and frankly i think alot of dealers hoard certain species just so the markey for them doesnt crash...ie..P. metallica., M. robustum, E. olivicea....ect..ect

i know and we all know there out there, but why do we never see them for sale? because either people are hoarding them trying to keep the market and demand up for them.

with shipping, economy, and cost of some of these BUGS that people love i say it works both ways...it helps people get what they want. but its hurting the dealers.

so, if noone ever sees a price drop because of intentional hoarding then its going to make it a forgot species anyway....which in turn hurts the dealers more.

so id rather see a few people selling things a little cheaper and still have a demand than to price something so high no one buys them and eventually dealers quite messing with them anyway.

its a win some, loose some scenario.

not to mention, i dont see how dealers would be "hurting for money" at all. i mean if you have a decent breeding stock and are producing sacs...thats pretty much all profit. you might not get rich...but you aint hurting either.

i mean figure it up. P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair. sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man. you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.


its just part of the game. play it or get played.

 

[Hamburglar]

I don't disagree with any of it really. However, If I sell for nearly the same price as a dealer.. Why would anyone buy from me? If it is the same spider for the same price from a dealer everyone knows... I don't have a chance. My prices may not be too low to start with, but I know I am going to entertain offers.

 

[gromgrom]

i mean figure it up. P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair. sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man. you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.


its just part of the game. play it or get played.

what happens when most T's drop to under $100 bucks? They certainly arent making enough to keep a business, especially since Ken himself has said many times he hasnt made a dime to date.

 

[jayefbe]

Ken, I also completely agree with your post. I'm big into ball pythons, and you see this happening there too. I've seen people individually churn out thousands of ball python morphs, and then sell them at a fraction of their cost because they don't have the means to take care of them. He could've invested in higher end stuff, or scaled back his breeding. Instead he bred every normal female he could find, produced a bunch of low-end morphs that are already in low demand and absolutely ruined the market for them.

All it takes is one guy producing a sac of P. metallica or M. balfouri and deciding to be "generous" and let the slings go for $50, and the market for those species has crashed.

 

[BrettG]

I find it quite hard to believe that some "have not made a dime" with some of the prices they have.Now,that is not directed at anyone in general,but a couple of dealers have some prices that are outrageous IMHO.Gotta be some $$$$ in there somewhere for dealers when I can go to someone else and pay much less.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

i mean figure it up. P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair. sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man. you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.


its just part of the game. play it or get played.

Man I wish I could get a P metallica sac I would have it made for the year! As to some other comments like I said I don't think its horrible for people to sell something cheaper in fact I expect most hobbyist to sell thier stuff below dealer prices and nothing wrong with that. One of the reasons I posted this was cause I emailed someone offering to buy out a sac they had for the exact amount they posted it. They told me they would rather sell it on the board to help the hobby. That was more too the point really. I don't think selling something on the board for a 3rd of what its worth helps anyone but the person that is selling thier slings fast.

 

[codykrr]

here are some decent examples of forgotten sp.

E. olivicea(alot of people dont even know its a genus...let alone in the hobby, in 5 years of being in the hobby, ive only seen them offered 3 or 4 times...and each time was for 400 to800 dollars...i mean even males go for 300...for something that might get eaten in 1 second) thats what i mean with hoarding and over pricing.

M. robustum- ive been looking for one diligently for over 2 months now. when i find a female its 300 bucks....i passed because it wouldnt be worth it for me to buy..

A. moderatum- granted its a slow growing sp. there still or were still high for adult(i quite looking for one) but about a year ago, people who had them didnt want to sell them, or wen they did they were outrageous.

these have drove the demand for these down alot. those are just 3 of what i know.

i mean id gladly pay 200 for a female robustum but not 3...so there is such a thing as TOO much.