Buying WC specimens what should I look for?

MissOrangeHat

Arachnopeon
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Feb 3, 2018
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I've seen a couple 'cheap' avic avic species on other platforms that have WC/Wild-Caught specimens. I've generally stayed away from buying wild caught, but it may be a thing I should consider?

What should I look and ask for??
I know asking about buyers and where they're stock comes from should come to mind, but should I ask about more?

Like any import paperwork, collection/import/export paperwork, etc, things like those? Or is this going too far??

As I've said, I don't buy WC, but I want to make sure I have all the legal paperwork to have said animal was caught/imported legally.

Thoughts? Am I going to far for something like this?
 

Chebe6886

Arachnobaron
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IMO opinion that’s really overkill. I think you just need to decide if the practice of wild caught Ts is something your ok supporting and encouraging more of.

It’s something I try to avoid. I do understand some specimens need to be taken from the wild but believe most hobbyists (that don’t do breeding) should mainly have access to captive bred specimens not wild caught.
I’m not going to hate on someone who feels different though
 

Jesse607

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Avicularia are one of the few that buying wc, I don't personally feel is a big deal. They are very abundant where they are from, and they grow quickly, so populations can rebound rather easily. Not like Aphonopelma chalcodes that take nearly ten years to mature, which means a few years of over collecting at one site may cause local extirpation. Some of the other commonly wc species like A. seemanni and T. albopilosus are likely somewhere in between.
 

viper69

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Ba
I've seen a couple 'cheap' avic avic species on other platforms that have WC/Wild-Caught specimens. I've generally stayed away from buying wild caught, but it may be a thing I should consider?

What should I look and ask for??
I know asking about buyers and where they're stock comes from should come to mind, but should I ask about more?

Like any import paperwork, collection/import/export paperwork, etc, things like those? Or is this going too far??

As I've said, I don't buy WC, but I want to make sure I have all the legal paperwork to have said animal was caught/imported legally.

Thoughts? Am I going to far for something like this?
Bad idea could have parasites

If it has adult colors and adult size you won’t know the age, might live months might live decade

Never had the need to knowingly buy WC, esp Avics

Avicularia are one of the few that buying wc, I don't personally feel is a big deal. They are very abundant where they are from, and they grow quickly, so populations can rebound rather easily. Not like Aphonopelma chalcodes that take nearly ten years to mature, which means a few years of over collecting at one site may cause local extirpation. Some of the other commonly wc species like A. seemanni and T. albopilosus are likely somewhere in between.

Do you have recent population data/ papers on Avics? If so I’d like to read them.

Sure they have a shorter life however they have this fact to deal with

2019 - 388 acres of Brazilian Amazon were burned every HOUR.


I wouldn’t say their populations are safe.
 

Swagg

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I think some people might be reading the thread wrong(or maybe I am). I read this as “what should I ask/look for to (avoid) buying WC specimens”.
I could be reading it wrong myself though.
 

DaveM

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I think some people might be reading the thread wrong(or maybe I am). I read this as “what should I ask/look for to (avoid) buying WC specimens”.
I could be reading it wrong myself though.
I don't believe that was the intent of this post, but don't feel bad: your interpretation was biased by your noble instincts.

It made more sense to buy WC a long time ago when not so many CB species were available, but now I'm usually happy with the selection available from breeders.
 

Jesse607

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Do you have recent population data/ papers on Avics? If so I’d like to read them.

Sure they have a shorter life however they have this fact to deal with

2019 - 388 acres of Brazilian Amazon were burned every HOUR.


I wouldn’t say their populations are safe.
From what I understand most are exported from Guyana, as it isn't illegal or enforced. And yes, I've been to Guyana, my wife is from there. Also, one of the YouTube channels (I can't remember which one, whether it was bugsnstuff, Andrew Smith, or BirdspidersCH) go to nearby Suriname where they were also abundant. Avicularia avicularia seems adapted to living in human disturbed environments.
 

viper69

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From what I understand most are exported from Guyana, as it isn't illegal or enforced. And yes, I've been to Guyana, my wife is from there. Also, one of the YouTube channels (I can't remember which one, whether it was bugsnstuff, Andrew Smith, or BirdspidersCH) go to nearby Suriname where they were also abundant. Avicularia avicularia seems adapted to living in human disturbed environments.
True on Guyana, at least that's the country that is on the label. Exporters do whatever it takes to get animals out of the country. This is interesting. I wonder how true it is though. When one says abundant, how was this determined? If a population study wasn't conducted then I can't trust anecdotal evidence.

Some Ts have been reported to adapt to man's intrusive activities to some degree.

Regardless continued pulling from the wild is not sustainable. Mexico certainly learned this.
 

Smotzer

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Like any import paperwork, collection/import/export paperwork, etc, things like those? Or is this going too far??
The only reason to do this would be to determine if an import was illegal or not. This would be an interesting thing to do at all pet stores that carry WC. I might do this at one of mine near me just to see what they say lol
 

viper69

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The only reason to do this would be to determine if an import was illegal or not. This would be an interesting thing to do at all pet stores that carry WC. I might do this at one of mine near me just to see what they say lol
The papers may be kept at HQ or with the importer only. I'm not familiar w/such laws, but a friend of mine is.
 

Smotzer

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The papers may be kept at HQ most likely.
Thats a good point, that may be the case. But I would think they might have to keep something on file at a branch, maybe im wrong.
But if its not a chain store, it would be interesting to see if they could produce any legal documentation.

I always thought that the amount of WC stuff i see in pet stores it cant all be 100% legal. think about Petco, they have 1500 locations across the Us, and everyone one ive been to has at least 1 in at all times, sometimes multiples. Maybe some arent WC but lets say at least half are WC thats at least 700 in at all times, and thats the low figure, for sake or discussion, i doubt its that low. How is that amount going to be truly legal. Idk maybe im crazy.
 

viper69

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I read an article by a US Federal lawyer on animal smuggling, he's a big shot in this area. After China, the USA is the worst in the world for this. However there are numerous midway points, other nationals I mean that participate in the process. It's a big web!

Now in S America, let's say you illegally take variegata. Well you slap country of origin with the name that is export legal, and customs doesn't look twice.
 

Jesse607

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True on Guyana, at least that's the country that is on the label. Exporters do whatever it takes to get animals out of the country. This is interesting. I wonder how true it is though. When one says abundant, how was this determined? If a population study wasn't conducted then I can't trust anecdotal evidence.

Some Ts have been reported to adapt to man's intrusive activities to some degree.

Regardless continued pulling from the wild is not sustainable. Mexico certainly learned this.
Let me be clear, I see no reason to continue to "harvest" A. avicularia from the wild anywhere, abundant or not, as they are well established in captivity, easily and readily captive bred. Same goes with T. albopilosus and A. seemanni. Unfortunately the big pet stores and many smaller ones continue to drive the demand for cheap wc species.
 

Vanessa

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Avicularia are one of the few that buying wc, I don't personally feel is a big deal. They are very abundant where they are from, and they grow quickly, so populations can rebound rather easily.
Avicularia avicularia, while they might even be the most ubiquitous species in all of South America, can still be over harvested from the wild potentially making them endangered. To say that they are 'very abundant where they are from' is misinformed at best.
Unless you know the population of every single locale, as well as the number being poached of every locale, you cannot say that those wild caught are not having an impact on the overall population of that locale. It's not like the poachers care that they don't poach too heavily from one area - they are going to poach them from one place until they're gone and then move onto the next. Factor in how many die in transit, that we have no clue about, and the statement that they can 'rebound easily' is a guess... at best.
Also, this might be a good time to bring up that they thought EXACTLY the same way about poaching Brachypelma from Mexico - until they realized that, by poaching all those females, they were ensuring their demise for dozens of generations to come. Unfortunately, as is the case most of the time, that realization came FAR too late.
 

Liquifin

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WC avics and WC T. albo's will never stop coming. Sadly it's just the painful truth as someone is always willing to import WC stock for quick money whether it be another hobbyist or reptile dealer that imported them. Unless someone is trying to breed WC specimens to establish CB specimens in the hobby, I see no point of buying WC specimens.
 

MissOrangeHat

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I personally don't like the idea of WC, but I am very skeptical of buying one. I had come across a wild-caught adult for sale but I was a little nervous to purchase it because they told me they got it from a friend which I really was not comfortable with the thought of that information.
They didn't really give you much information about their friend so I hesitated in and told them no that I was not interested in that.
The point of this post was to figure out if I was legally able to obtain those documents or information regarding wild caught tarantulas.
I appreciate everyone's comments on this post. Thank you very much for your thoughts and opinions.
I also sincerely apologizes if my post was a bit too confusing.
 
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NukaMedia Exotics

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If they look healthy you're probably fine just I wouldn't pay too much for a WC specimen personally. I've had probably 5-10 WC adults of various species with no problems, but obviously captive bred are more likely to be healthier.
 

viper69

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Let me be clear, I see no reason to continue to "harvest" A. avicularia from the wild anywhere, abundant or not, as they are well established in captivity, easily and readily captive bred. Same goes with T. albopilosus and A. seemanni. Unfortunately the big pet stores and many smaller ones continue to drive the demand for cheap wc species.
I’m only curious about how abundant they really are.
 
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