Breeding using different bloodlines

Big_nito

TRISKELION
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Hello everyone. Im just curious. Is there such thing as tarantula in breeding? I mean would the quality of my tarantula deteriorates if I use brother-sister as breeding pairs?
 

Travis K

TravIsGinger
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Hello everyone. Im just curious. Is there such thing as tarantula in breeding? I mean would the quality of my tarantula deteriorates if I use brother-sister as breeding pairs?
It isn't as much an issue with inverts but people prefer to pair 'non-related' Ts for breeding.

Cheers,
 

Stan Schultz

Arachnoprince
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... Is there such thing as tarantula in breeding? ...
Definitely yes! There are at least several more or less common species in captivity, all of whose members can trace their lineage back to one or a very few eggsacs or mothers imported several decades ago. At this point, genetically they're all very nearly identical twins!

... I mean would the quality of my tarantula deteriorates if I use brother-sister as breeding pairs?
At this point in the hobby we have not been inbreeding enough to be able to see any glaring disasters. But, it's getting to the point where almost every week someone else reports or asks questions about some defect they just noticed in their favorite pet tarantula.

And, other industries and hobbies breeding all the common domestic and pet animals and plants see the results of intense inbreeding every day. Our time will come.

I have participated in several heated discussions on this subject in the past, with a generally negative or even antagonistic response from other enthusiasts. They refuse to see the writing on the wall. You can read some of these by going to these links:

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?2828-Cross-breeding

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?3303-breeding

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=100533

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=109401


Also, use the Search link in the gray bar across the top of this page to look up the following search strings

inbreeding

selective breeding


Lastly, perform similar searches in other forums you may be a member of. Just be sure to put on another pot of coffee or make sure you have an ample supply of your other favorite beverages. And, clear your schedule. You have a lot of reading ahead of you.

Enjoy your inbred, 7-eyed, 9-legged little marvels!
 

Scoolman

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Definitely yes! There are at least several more or less common species in captivity, all of whose members can trace their lineage back to one or a very few eggsacs or mothers imported several decades ago. At this point, genetically they're all very nearly identical twins!



At this point in the hobby we have not been inbreeding enough to be able to see any glaring disasters. But, it's getting to the point where almost every week someone else reports or asks questions about some defect they just noticed in their favorite pet tarantula.

And, other industries and hobbies breeding all the common domestic and pet animals and plants see the results of intense inbreeding every day. Our time will come.

I have participated in several heated discussions on this subject in the past, with a generally negative or even antagonistic response from other enthusiasts. They refuse to see the writing on the wall. You can read some of these by going to these links:

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?2828-Cross-breeding

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?3303-breeding

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=100533

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=109401


Also, use the Search link in the gray bar across the top of this page to look up the following search strings

inbreeding

selective breeding


Lastly, perform similar searches in other forums you may be a member of. Just be sure to put on another pot of coffee or make sure you have an ample supply of your other favorite beverages. And, clear your schedule. You have a lot of reading ahead of you.

Enjoy your inbred, 7-eyed, 9-legged little marvels!
+101 I agree.
 

AudreyElizabeth

Arachnodemon
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I would think that brother and sister would not be likely; rather, son to mother. Brothers and sisters are going to mature too far apart from what I understand.
 

pato_chacoana

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I would think that brother and sister would not be likely; rather, son to mother. Brothers and sisters are going to mature too far apart from what I understand.
Not exactly true. It can be done perfectly, besides there are ways to slow down growth for males. I've done it with sac mates and the sac was very healthy...
In my opinion, the ideal situation would be that in which you can breed different specimens from same populations. But, as this is not the case mostly, sometimes in order to breed in captivity you have to inbreed with sac mates or mother-son, etc... and I think not big disasters occur unless it's done for more than 1 or 2 generations, the problem is that no new blood enters the system in some cases...but there is no solid research about this subject with spiders that I know of...
Unfortunately there are still massive WC imports and for most species and no one knows where exactly are the collection places...so we can't map the distributions of populations and keep track of the different species....oohh well, I'm going to bed now... :}

Cheers,
Pato
 

Wacko

Arachnopeon
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Jun 28, 2009
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5
Actually, with some species, it's recommended to use specimens from the same sac (so: brother+sister). I'm not an expert, but I've heard several times that Poecilotheria metallica has a higher chance of producing a succesful eggsac when 'incest' happens.
 

pato_chacoana

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Actually, with some species, it's recommended to use specimens from the same sac (so: brother+sister). I'm not an expert, but I've heard several times that Poecilotheria metallica has a higher chance of producing a succesful eggsac when 'incest' happens.
This makes no sense to me...it contradicts itself with the primary advantage of sexual reproduction, which is genetical variability.
 

Stan Schultz

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Actually, with some species, it's recommended to use specimens from the same sac (so: brother+sister). I'm not an expert, but I've heard several times that Poecilotheria metallica has a higher chance of producing a succesful eggsac when 'incest' happens.
But you cannot cheat Mother Nature. If you take the easy (some of us would say lazy) way of breeding them, sooner or later your family line of metalicas will suddenly begin to display too many eyes, or no eyes, or no spinnerets, or crippled legs, or high mortality rates during molts, etc. The Devil must take his due.

Be very cautious about violating the rules of animal husbandry that have been handed down to us through dozens or hundreds of generations of humans.

Tarantulas may seem bizarre to us, but they still follow all the very most basic biological principles such as self preservation, predation, and sexual reproduction; the Laws of Heredity and the Laws of Evolution; and all the traditional, most basic biochemical and physiological principles. As strange as they seem, they still are life on Earth.

We've been fooled into thinking that they are somehow exempt, partly because we haven't been breeding them in captivity long enough to know by personal experience, partly because natural selection is so all pervasive in the wild populations that naturally occurring variations appear so very rarely. (See note below.) They are no more exempt than any other creature on this planet.

_____________________________________________

Note: Do the math. If an average tarantula eggsac produces 250 babies, and the annual production of any one female is one eggsac, all the babies from an eggsac in nature except perhaps one or two will die before they have an opportunity to reproduce. That reduces to a survival rate of less than 1% (i.e., less then 1 out of 100). The odds of survival of a healthy, defect free individual are almost zero, much less for any individual that has any hint of a defect. It's a cruel world out there.

However, enthusiast's who breed tarantulas, for any number of reasons, fail to weed out the defective ones as ruthlessly, and therefore it is entirely expectable to find aberrant characteristics in even well managed family lines. The good news here is that we'll eventually end up with as many variations in our captive tarantulas as there are among tropical aquarium fish. The bad news is that there will almost surely be at least as many deleterious variations, and we're doing nothing about them now when it's relatively easy to reduce their number. Worse yet, once these deleterious variations become all pervasive in a captive bred population, there is almost no way to eliminate them. (See for instance my comments elsewhere about defective gill opercula in the aquarium bred scalare [angelfish].)

Perhaps we should prize the wild caught tarantula so highly not because it is bizarre, but because it is perfect!
 
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Stan Schultz

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This makes no sense to me...it contradicts itself with the primary advantage of sexual reproduction, which is genetical variability.
This is yet another interesting thread in the vast fabric of life on Earth.

In an extreme situation, perhaps where all but a very few individuals survive some calamity, it is better for siblings to produce offspring than for the species to go extinct. Mother Nature (again, please forgive the anthropomorphism) would then deal with any deleterious results over the following generations through normal variation and natural selection.

The cheetahs of Africa are a good example of this. At some time in the past (estimated at about 10,000 years ago) as few as perhaps seven cheetahs survived to produce all the cheetahs alive today. All living cheetahs are effectively identical twins!

(Google cheetah "genetic bottleneck" site:.edu for more information.)

But this can only be done rarely because it reduces genetic variability and therefore survivability of the resulting population (though not necessarily of the individuals), as you point out.

We might consider being captured and kept in captivity to be such a calamity, at least for the small number of tarantulas that find their way into our cages. And, to maintain the captive population "incest" would necessarily have to be resorted to in spite of its deleterious effects.

But here is where the parallel ends. For in captivity Mother Nature does not cull out the weak or defective individuals. The arachnoculturist, whose job it should be to do so, loves each and every one of the sweet, little darlings (or the $5, $50, or $500 for each depending on their rarity and the gullibility of other enthusiasts), and while they're quite ready to accept the power of playing God, cannot bare to accept the responsibilities of doing so.

And that leads us to your quite justifiable concern. Again, I've discussed this ad nauseam in the postings listed in another response in this thread, often with less than overwhelming acceptance. And, I won't walk you through the whole argument to save the sanity of any others who read this. Find that other posting and visit the links.

Meanwhile, enjoy your little 8-legged flame throwers!
 

sharpfang

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Meanwhile, enjoy your little 8-legged flame throwers!
Are you speaking of Arautums Stan :p

Any1 who does Not think inbreeding Tarantulas will have an effect after many c.b. generations, is Not wanting to consider it's possibility. "They are just Bugs" I can hear :D

Although it should also be OBVIOUS I feel, that it would take more intense inbreeding to be dramatically/noticably seen w/ Arachnids - compared to other Families of Creatures on Earth....much more evident w/ Mammals ofcourse. And there are Evolutionary & Genetic reasons I feel, for why Arachnids would be a little, less-suseptable to it's Immediate {short-term}, Normally Diverse effects.

I have spoken w/ breeders and seen the Results from Many generations of Versicolors, where Color & over-all Health, were dulled and weaker - Noticable after a few generations....and a couple *New* bloodlines, improved colony Health & visual Appearence :cool:

Conversely, I have heard through pers. comm. that OBT's bred to the 8th Generation, have seemed as "Normal" as F1 :rolleyes:

IMO = a Good Rule of pinkie: :p

Diversify your Bloodlines {and "BONDS" - LOL}, and vary the Diet givin' to ALL kinds of captive creatures.
 
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mike w

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Brother and sister breeding is ok if in West Virginia!!!{D{D{D:barf::barf:
 

sharpfang

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Orange ya gonna try 2 breed'em ?

Brother and sister breeding is ok if in West Virginia!!!{D{D{D:barf::barf:
"Hybridizing" is still frowned upon there though :D

Hey Mike! That OBT female I got from you, was one of my favorite specimens yet :razz:
She mated last couple days {Not w/ a sibling -or- different species :rolleyes:}
and I have another Fresh MM that is So Orange! = I am excited about breeding, arguably the Easiest Sp. to accomplish that w/ :)
 

pato_chacoana

Arachnoangel
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This is yet another interesting thread in the vast fabric of life on Earth.

In an extreme situation, perhaps where all but a very few individuals survive some calamity, it is better for siblings to produce offspring than for the species to go extinct. Mother Nature (again, please forgive the anthropomorphism) would then deal with any deleterious results over the following generations through normal variation and natural selection.
Evolution by adaptation -Natural Selection- doesn't work as ''species benefit'', but as INDIVIDUAL survival and reproduction, and the successful advantageous characteristics are passed on through generations. In an extreme case, it would depend in what kind of organism we are talking about, there are many strategies to avoid endogamy...but an organism doesn't act ''for the survival of their species''.
The cheetah case is another story, it happened as a 'bottle neck'... the populations were reduced drastically in numbers and the genetic variability too, but that doesn't mean they bred sister/brother, etc...
 

barabootom

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I agree with Pikaia and pato_chacoana, inbreeding should be avoided but with many species in the hobbie, probably isn't possible, esp with species that have volume eggsacs. Here's an example. A few years ago, I bred 5 N chromatus sacmate females with a non-related male (I have no way of knowing if it was truly an unrelated male since I purchased it from someone else). All 5 produced sacs. Each sac had at least 500 slings, some had more. I sold all the slings. The market for that specie became saturated very quickly and because the specie had no value, many breeders decided not to bother breeding their females. As those slings I produced mature in 3-5 years (about now), most of the mature males in the hobby for that window of time will be related to the original male I used. So even if you acquire your male from someone else, what is the likelihood it isn't related to your female, esp. if you acquired a chromatus from one of those sacs? That has likely been repeated several times, each time truncating the chromatus in the hobby more and more. How many females will be in the hobby for the next 10-12 years that are all related to those sacs I produced (1500??)? So for the sake of the hobby, it isn't a matter of inbreeding as much as selective breeding. If your male isn't especially large and healthy, I wouldn't breed it. I'd look for one that was. Same goes for the female. Only breed the healthiest. I wouldn't not breed, even if you know they are brother and sister, unless you know you can get a non-related male. Non-breeding healthy specimens further truncates the species. In the case of P metallica, aren't all the specimens in the hobby related to just 2-3 originals?

I look at my dubia roaches. I have a colony that has been inbreeding for at least several generations in my care. I still have plenty of roaches, but I have noticed more smaller females, but many are still very large. I've been feeding the smaller females to the T's and saving just the larger females. I think the same principle should be used with T's. Don't breed the small ts, the poor eaters, those with defects or lesions, but if they're healthy, breed them.
 

pato_chacoana

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I look at my dubia roaches. I have a colony that has been inbreeding for at least several generations in my care. I still have plenty of roaches, but I have noticed more smaller females, but many are still very large. I've been feeding the smaller females to the T's and saving just the larger females. I think the same principle should be used with T's. Don't breed the small ts, the poor eaters, those with defects or lesions, but if they're healthy, breed them.
Indeed, that's also a very good point.
 

AudreyElizabeth

Arachnodemon
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Actually, with some species, it's recommended to use specimens from the same sac (so: brother+sister). I'm not an expert, but I've heard several times that Poecilotheria metallica has a higher chance of producing a succesful eggsac when 'incest' happens.
I've read that Poecilotheria metallica have a severely fragmented range/ distribution. I'd have to do some digging to find it, but if was true then wouldn't the members of a 'pocket' be related in some form or fashion?

Also, thanks for clearing it up about the brother/sister mate potential. I imagine it is easier for the tarantulas with a rapid growth rate, like Poecilotheria or Psalmopoeus, rather than Brachypelma or Grammostola.
Interesting thread.

Here is an interesting link by the way
http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/63563/0/full
 
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