Brachypelma Vagans versus Sabulosum

Smithk

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Arachnopeon

Hi guys
Just a question......I posted a photo of a tarantula I received from someone who do not know what species it is.....he indicated that he think when he bought it six years ago the petshop said it was a sabulosum......
I have read a lot about them and some say that there was a lot of cross breeding between these species......but how do you know..? And if its hybrid between vagans and sabulosum can you still breed with it.....

Thanx
 

Greasylake

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If its a hybrid I would highly advise against breeding them. All that will do is muddy the genetics more than they already have been, and I think we all want our species to be as genetically pure as we can keep them. Otherwise we may end up with Ts that are so genetically screwed up that they no longer resemble any species that we have in the hobby.
 

Nightstalker47

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Arachnopeon

Hi guys
Just a question......I posted a photo of a tarantula I received from someone who do not know what species it is.....he indicated that he think when he bought it six years ago the petshop said it was a sabulosum......
I have read a lot about them and some say that there was a lot of cross breeding between these species......but how do you know..? And if its hybrid between vagans and sabulosum can you still breed with it.....

Thanx
Only one way to find out, lets see some pics. Don't breed unless your certain of what you really have.
 

Smithk

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Jun 7, 2018
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Only one way to find out, lets see some pics. Don't breed unless your certain of what you really have.
I would appreciate it. I placed some 4 photos on the id page.
If you could go there and comment please,
She is a full 6" now and I realy hope its not a hybrid, but how can you tell........
 

Smithk

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Jun 7, 2018
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http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/smithk-id-request-3-4.51209/full

http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/smithk-id-request-4-4.51210/full

http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/smithk-id-request-2-4.51208/full

Hope this helps.....

http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/smithk-id-request-1-4.51207/full

Don't know if this can help.....if you zoom into the tip of her front leg, she's got brownish red tips.....

If its a hybrid I would highly advise against breeding them. All that will do is muddy the genetics more than they already have been, and I think we all want our species to be as genetically pure as we can keep them. Otherwise we may end up with Ts that are so genetically screwed up that they no longer resemble any species that we have in the hobby.
Yes I know this......that is why I am asking......how will you know if its pure or not.....
.reading on the topic some say all vagans or mexican red rumps are hybrid, because of species so close together they cannot distinguish between them.....
 
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boina

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It's pretty impossible to identify red rump Brachypelmas from a picture. The differences between sabulosum and vagans are, according to what I've read: sabulosum is more brownish whereas vagans is black, even late in the molt cycle. Sabulosum also has clear stripes on the knees whereas with vagans those are less obvious. While color is a difficult marker those striped legs should be easy to see. And sabulosum gets significantly bigger - it's supposed to be the biggest red rump. The color is very difficult to identify in pictures but my guess is that you have a vagans. Then there are B. angustum - looks like vagans, but smaller; and B. kahlenbergi - looks like sabulosum (clearly brownish), but smaller.
A better way is actually to look at the molt - spermathecae should tell you something about the species if you manage to prepare them well.
 

Venom1080

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It's pretty impossible to identify red rump Brachypelmas from a picture. The differences between sabulosum and vagans are, according to what I've read: sabulosum is more brownish whereas vagans is black, even late in the molt cycle. Sabulosum also has clear stripes on the knees whereas with vagans those are less obvious. While color is a difficult marker those striped legs should be easy to see. And sabulosum gets significantly bigger - it's supposed to be the biggest red rump. The color is very difficult to identify in pictures but my guess is that you have a vagans. Then there are B. angustum - looks like vagans, but smaller; and B. kahlenbergi - looks like sabulosum (clearly brownish), but smaller.
A better way is actually to look at the molt - spermathecae should tell you something about the species if you manage to prepare them well.
On a side note, do you know any ways to 100% , or at least 99.9%, way of iding a tarantula? I've heard of a guy sending a Pamphobeteus molt to a arachnologist who ided it for him as a antinous.
 

Smithk

Arachnopeon
Joined
Jun 7, 2018
Messages
6
It's pretty impossible to identify red rump Brachypelmas from a picture. The differences between sabulosum and vagans are, according to what I've read: sabulosum is more brownish whereas vagans is black, even late in the molt cycle. Sabulosum also has clear stripes on the knees whereas with vagans those are less obvious. While color is a difficult marker those striped legs should be easy to see. And sabulosum gets significantly bigger - it's supposed to be the biggest red rump. The color is very difficult to identify in pictures but my guess is that you have a vagans. Then there are B. angustum - looks like vagans, but smaller; and B. kahlenbergi - looks like sabulosum (clearly brownish), but smaller.
A better way is actually to look at the molt - spermathecae should tell you something about the species if you manage to prepare them well.
Thanks, I will look into it further, it seems like a wild guess......I will go with vagans and get me a MM....
 

boina

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On a side note, do you know any ways to 100% , or at least 99.9%, way of iding a tarantula? I've heard of a guy sending a Pamphobeteus molt to a arachnologist who ided it for him as a antinous.
Yes, that's about all I can come up with, too. Now you only need to persuade the taxonomist to do the work... ;)
 

Paul1126

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Yeah don't breed unless you 100% know for certain what you have.
The Red rump family of brachys all look very similar.
I have both species, sabulosum went through a moult and looks identical to a vagans.
 

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boina

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I'm not sure how many sabulosums in the hobby are really sabulosums and not just renamed vagans. Vagans doesn't sell, at least not where I live, so I can imagine some vendors 'renaming' theirs sabulosum to have something rare and being able to sell it and actually get some money for it. The real sabulosum must have striped knees, like A. seemanni. If it doesn't I'd kind of be sceptical about the sabulosum identification. There's a really good pic of a real sabulosum here. Most pics that come up on google images really look like vagans instead.
 

Paul1126

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I'm not sure how many sabulosums in the hobby are really sabulosums and not just renamed vagans. Vagans doesn't sell, at least not where I live, so I can imagine some vendors 'renaming' theirs sabulosum to have something rare and being able to sell it and actually get some money for it. The real sabulosum must have striped knees, like A. seemanni. If it doesn't I'd kind of be sceptical about the sabulosum identification. There's a really good pic of a real sabulosum here. Most pics that come up on google images really look like vagans instead.
Interesting I didn't know that, it seems that I have a Brachypelma vagans.
 

sschind

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this is not scientific by any means but a couple of years ago I bought 6 vagans and 6 sabulosum as tiny slings. They were the same size when I got them and I set them up identically and kept them in identical enclosures for the time I had them (maybe a year or a bit less.) The only way I could tell them apart as the time went by was the size. By the time I sold them the ones labeled as sabulosum were all almost 3 times the size. I don't recall that the molted any more often but they seemed to gain size much more rapidly. I know this really doesn't help but it just confirms to me that I did indeed have two different species and I felt confident selling them as such. Besides that I bough them from a pretty reliable dealer who advertises on here a lot. At least I think he is reliable. I've never seen a bad post about him and I've never had a bad deal out of the 4 that I've done with him.
 

Riaco Brian Talisic

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this is not scientific by any means but a couple of years ago I bought 6 vagans and 6 sabulosum as tiny slings. They were the same size when I got them and I set them up identically and kept them in identical enclosures for the time I had them (maybe a year or a bit less.) The only way I could tell them apart as the time went by was the size. By the time I sold them the ones labeled as sabulosum were all almost 3 times the size. I don't recall that the molted any more often but they seemed to gain size much more rapidly. I know this really doesn't help but it just confirms to me that I did indeed have two different species and I felt confident selling them as such. Besides that I bough them from a pretty reliable dealer who advertises on here a lot. At least I think he is reliable. I've never seen a bad post about him and I've never had a bad deal out of the 4 that I've done with him.
I also agree because when the time that i bought my vagans and the sabulosum they also have the same size but now the sabulosum outgrow the vagans and seems like a bit fatty
 

RP91

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Nov 29, 2018
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I have a B. vagans with very distinct red hairs on the back legs. Or what I believe to be a vagans. Jet black with a very red rump. Maybe a hybrid?

IMG_20190922_214249.jpg
 
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RP91

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Its a juvenile that still lacks its full adult colors.
Not to bring back a dead thread, but oh how right you are. After the next molt the red on the back legs is almost gone and the carapace is almost completely black.
 
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