Brachypelma baumgarteni/boehmei "Hybrid" - Mature Male

[ErinM31]

I don't have a wild form, but I do have a 1.5" hobby form sling. The hobby form was produced in the exact situation we are trying to prevent in the above posts. Some idiots started breeding the pure B. albos with other Brachypelma, mostly vagans. The hybrids were introduced to the pure lines, and now almost all B. albopilosum in the hobby are hybrids.

Is that the case or are the rosier ones from Honduras? I have heard both and do not know which is true or perhaps there are Nicaraguan, Honduran and out-crossed lines!

 

[Leonardo the Mage]

I do not understand the blanket stigma against hybridization.

1) The issue of something being sold as something it isn't is totally separate from hybridization. As posts here and many other threads in this forum alone attest, many petstores routinely sell mislabeled tarantulas and it's not always a hybrid but one species being sold as another. THAT is a problem and a reason to only buy from reputable dealers.

2) Many of you state it as a given that the "pure" species are "worth more" but why should this be so? Has not out-crossing (hybridizing) and selecting for specific traits been used to produce animals and plants with characteristics we find desirable? So long as the health of the animal is not compromised (as has been done in many breeds of dogs), I see no problem with this. I agree that we should maintain lines of original species and localities but why not create new lines? That "hybrid" tarantula is beautiful without labels to create value or stigma, I bet most people would pay more for it! Give this line a name and sell it -- why not? Don't tell me about people crossing it and selling it as something else -- suddenly the person who just wanted a beautiful tarantula has the expertise to breed them and is going to set out to con those who want "pure breds"? That does not strike me as plausible.

3) Care should be taken to know what tarantulas are before breeding them and then this information properly conveyed to those buying the offspring so that people can buy color forms, species, crosses, whatever, with confidence. It is going to happen anyway and by making it taboo, it will only lead to falsification which is the REAL problem here.

And if anyone is going to sell slings or a female of this gorgeous cross -- I would like one! Don't tell me I have to make my own!

One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed. They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.

 

[Leonardo the Mage]

Is that the case or are the rosier ones from Honduras? I have heard both and do not know which is true or perhaps there are Nicaraguan, Honduran and out-crossed lines!

This is a thread on the diffrences between HF and NF:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/br...-vs-brachypelma-albopilosum-nicaragua.288738/

 

[ErinM31]

One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed. They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.

But this person in your example could just as well do that with any Brachypelma (or perhaps even other species!) they bought, sell the slings as whatever online and then disappear. We cannot stop that from happening, only do our part by only breeding tarantulas from trusted sources.

 

[Paiige]

And if anyone is going to sell slings or a female of this gorgeous cross -- I would like one! Don't tell me I have to make my own!

I'd start with checking your local Petco They can probably order one for you if they don't have one in stock! From what my local pet stores have told me each chain has commissioned breeders.

 

[ErinM31]

I'd start with checking your local Petco They can probably order one for you if they don't have one in stock! From what my local pet stores have told me each chain has commissioned breeders.

Haha No, I won't be supporting the sale of tarantulas from chain pet stores for more than one reason.

 

[Paiige]

Haha No, I won't be supporting the sale of tarantulas from chain pet stores for more than one reason.

I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.

 

[Walker253]

Bottom Line, breeding hybrids is irresponsible. There is no way to maintain control of what you, yes you decided to create. There are too many tarantulas that are way less than pure being sold as pure. You are doing yourself and everyone else a disservice by thinking you are doing something "cool". There is no way to justify it. When you try, it's just an excuse to make you feel better about what you're doing.

From the "Hobby Form" of the B albopilosum to many B vagans all the way to the H gigas, many of the captive born slings being sold are no longer pure strains of what they are supposed to be, unless they are from two wild caught parents. This is all being done, by people who are careless, or unknowing, or those who think they are trying something that would be "cool".

Justify away...

 

[Walker253]

I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.

Don't go to the Humane Society then.

 

[Paiige]

Don't go to the Humane Society then.

I don't plan on it - I'd like to avoid my home becoming a zoo if at all possible

 

[ErinM31]

I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.

I can empathize with that! All the more reason why I wouldn't ask them to obtain a tarantula for me, even if I trusted that I'd be receiving what I paid for.

 

[Bugmom]

I do not understand the blanket stigma against hybridization.

1) The issue of something being sold as something it isn't is totally separate from hybridization. As posts here and many other threads in this forum alone attest, many petstores routinely sell mislabeled tarantulas and it's not always a hybrid but one species being sold as another. THAT is a problem and a reason to only buy from reputable dealers.

No, they are the same problem, same issue, because too many people can't recognize a hybrid when they see it, so they sell it as whatever they think it looks like, to people who also cannot tell that it's a hybrid. How do you think I ended up with a male baum/boehmei hybrid? It even took me a couple years to realize that he was a hybrid. Sure, he's pretty, but as far as his ability to breed, he's junk. Worthless. Nice pet, but that's it (who I might add has quit eating, so who knows how long he will even be around, and I have no way of knowing his health decline isn't related to being a hybrid).

2) Many of you state it as a given that the "pure" species are "worth more" but why should this be so? Has not out-crossing (hybridizing) and selecting for specific traits been used to produce animals and plants with characteristics we find desirable? So long as the health of the animal is not compromised (as has been done in many breeds of dogs), I see no problem with this. I agree that we should maintain lines of original species and localities but why not create new lines? That "hybrid" tarantula is beautiful without labels to create value or stigma, I bet most people would pay more for it! Give this line a name and sell it -- why not? Don't tell me about people crossing it and selling it as something else -- suddenly the person who just wanted a beautiful tarantula has the expertise to breed them and is going to set out to con those who want "pure breds"? That does not strike me as plausible.

I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck.

Can you 100% prove that hybrids are as healthy as pure form? Can you 100% ensure that EVERY SINGLE PERSON will not breed a hybrid and sell the offspring as pure? Of course you can't.

3) Care should be taken to know what tarantulas are before breeding them and then this information properly conveyed to those buying the offspring so that people can buy color forms, species, crosses, whatever, with confidence. It is going to happen anyway and by making it taboo, it will only lead to falsification which is the REAL problem here.

Quick - go to the "guess that spider" thread. Guess all of them correctly. Can't do it? Then what makes you think that hybrids should be sold or that the average person will be able to identify a hybrid when they see it?

Also, what Leonardo said:

One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed. They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.

 

[ErinM31]

No, they are the same problem, same issue, because too many people can't recognize a hybrid when they see it, so they sell it as whatever they think it looks like, to people who also cannot tell that it's a hybrid. How do you think I ended up with a male baum/boehmei hybrid? It even took me a couple years to realize that he was a hybrid. Sure, he's pretty, but as far as his ability to breed, he's junk. Worthless. Nice pet, but that's it (who I might add has quit eating, so who knows how long he will even be around, and I have no way of knowing his health decline isn't related to being a hybrid).


I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck.

Can you 100% prove that hybrids are as healthy as pure form? Can you 100% ensure that EVERY SINGLE PERSON will not breed a hybrid and sell the offspring as pure? Of course you can't.


Quick - go to the "guess that spider" thread. Guess all of them correctly. Can't do it? Then what makes you think that hybrids should be sold or that the average person will be able to identify a hybrid when they see it?

Also, what Leonardo said:

Absolutely what has been done with dog breeding is disgusting! The health of the animals should never be compromised and usually this is the result of excessive in-breeding and selecting for features that are unhealthy for the animal.

Will our tarantulas be healthier if we approach in-breeding or if we out-cross them? Were there enough individuals collected from the wild that inbreeding is not a concern? I certainly do not know.

Of course I cannot guarantee that no one will sell a hybrid as pure but is that not happening already? What you say underscores the point that I had hoped to make: We CANNOT recognize every hybrid by sight alone.

Yes, there are legitimate concerns about hybridizing including the long term health of the species. Perhaps my initial post came across too pro-hybridization (I was joking about making such a cross myself, sorry) but I wanted to present a counterpoint and discuss WHY it might be bad and what we can actually do about it.

You are, of course, absolutely correct that we cannot stop people from crossing hybrids and selling them as something else but neither can you stop people from making hybrids in the first place. I did not mean to promote this so much as point out that labeling such tarantulas as worthless for breeding, etc., will not stop people from hybridizing but rather give people greater incentive to lie about what the tarantula they're selling really is. If people are going to make hybrids anyway, then it is better we all know what they are both to preserve lines and then see whether they are more or less healthy than pure strains.

Regardless of what any of us think of the matter, one thing is certain: Caveat Emptor

 

[Trenor]

I'm not a fan of hybridization. It's kinda like mixing all the oil colors on the palate together.. in the end all you have is a ruddy looking brown. There is no way to tell if the next time they are mixed you'll even get close to the same results. There are plenty of nice looking Ts out there without needing to wildly mix them.

I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck.

All the problems you just described are from in-breeding or heavy selective breeding not hybridization. Dog and cats are of the same species so you're not crossing two different species regardless of what breeds of dogs (or cats) you are mixing.

In our quest to play Bob the Builder with the looks of our animals we introduce problems for the animals. For example dogs... to make a new breed of dog we take dogs that have whatever trait we are looking for. Say a smaller leg size. We breed those together till the desired trait (smaller leg size) is dominant when two of our new breed has offspring. Changing things like the shape of the head or hips or legs can have negative results like some breeds being prone to hip problems and other to suffer from constant headaches. The same is true of cats and other animals.

Snake issues are, in part, due to in-breeding. Breeders are on a quest for new color patterns or morphs that are usually the result of recessive genes. When they get offspring that have them they often inbreed to increase the chance that their offspring will also have the recessive gene for the color. This leads to all kinds of problems as every species has junk genes that when expressed can cause major problems in the animal. This is why it's a bad idea for any animal to have offspring with a sibling. They are are more likely to have the same junk genes which increases the chance that one of the bad recessive genes will express. This goes for snakes or basically any other animal. Eventually, you'll end up with a detrimental recessive gene that causes harm to the offspring.

Again these problems are usually due to heavy selective breeding or in-breeding of the animals not from hybridization.

That being said I'm not a fan of hybridization in the tarantula hobby. It is way too easy to muddy the species we have by mistake without intentionally doing so ourselves.

 

[MetalMan2004]

I must also say that I in no way condone the interbreeding of species. I don't plan on playing god with my tarantulas...

There is a big difference between the dog breeding mentioned above and the hybridizing of Ts though. Pure bred dogs are inbred and the gene pool DECREASES to the point that health issues occur. I know this first hand from the 2 pure bred dogs my wife bought before we got married. They led short lives riddled with health problems.

With T hybridizing you are actually adding variety to the gene pool. It may hurt the T's health but it may help it. We probably will never know.

Since we can't decide whether the selling a hybrid as a pure is the same problem or a different problem I will comment on that one again as well. If everyone does their due dilligence there shouldn't be an issue. Caveat emptor indeed. Buyer beware, but seller do your due dilligence as well. Know what you are breeding and label it correctly. If you don't I like to think that you have it coming to you.

 

[Trenor]

I don't plan on playing god with my tarantulas...

You do that every time you drop food in the enclosure.

 

[Hydrazine]

Ethical issues aside, I think we can all agree that the largest problem is that not all hybrids are sold as such. I don't think I'd be against hybridisation IF all hybrids were labeled as hybrids.

 

[Bugmom]

I know that snake morphs and "boutique" dog breeds are often the result of inbreeding or linebreeding vs hybridizing. I was trying to make a point about messing with genetics in general and forgot to flesh that part out in my reply.

 

[Vanessa]

While we hybridize species all the time, there are very good reasons to that are not applicable to tarantulas. There is absolutely no benefit to tarantulas being hybridized whatsoever.
We hybridize vegetation all the time in order to produce drought resistant, pest resistant, species that can endure the current conditions in places that would otherwise not be able to grow them.
We hybridize animals, in some cases, to eliminate medical conditions to prevent extinction. Nature will sometimes choose to hybridize two species where one might be facing extinction.
All of those reasons are valid ones to support hybridization. "It looks really cool", or "because I can" is not a good enough reason and is the only reason for the hybridization of tarantulas.

 

[metallica]

I would be curious to know if these hybrids are naturally occurring. I know baumgarteni prefers more humidity and the boehmei prefers scrubland and their environments are different but if they were to meet on some sort of middle ground as opposed to being encouraged to copulate in a cage, would we see a large amount of natural hybrids...

The habitat for B. baumgarteni and B. boehmei are identical. Dry deciduous forest. The middle ground is a big river; the Balsas. This is the natural border for the 2 species. So no, in nature these 2 species don't meet.