Black Widow vs. H. Maculata

Kathy

Arachnoangel
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Which bite do you think would be the worse?? Just curious because I see black widows all the time and don't worry too much about it, but I'm terrified of being bitten by my h. mac. Got to thinking, wouldn't a black widow bite be actually worse?
 

cacoseraph

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i believe L. mactans and L. hesperus both have kills on record. i don't think Hmac does
 

blacktara

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At the lower end a widow bite will give you symptoms like a bad case of the flu. Getting worse would be severe muscle cramping often involving the abdominal muscles to the point that there are recorded instances of widow bite victims being taken to the OR for exploratory laparotomy because the physicians thought they were dealing with an acute abdomen. At worst, widow bites have resulted in death - (usually in the very young, very old, or those with underlying medical problems of significant severity)

Not nearly as many documented cases of H Mac bites out there.

For what it's worth regarding T bites - (and this i one man's opinion).

The medical profession is taught that T bites are not dangerous- that it's like a bee sting. I think it's time to reevaluate that stance. First and foremost to recognize that all T's and therefore all T bites are NOT at all the same. From what I have read and reviewed on bite reports and bite video clips, it's time to get medical people to recognize that some T's belong in the venomous category as far as they are concerned.

From the (limited) data out there, it is certainly conceivable that amongst a large group of bites, especially if some very young, very old, or sick, people were among the victims, that you'd eventually get a death from a Pokie bite. (which wouldnt mean we should think of Pokies as deadly spiders)

Now - to clarify (or perhaps muddle) this a little bit. Look at the Pokie bite reports - and it's clear it's highly unpleasant - but then again havent seen a report of anyone who was in real medical danger.

So time to teach medical people about how certain T bites are going to be much worse than a bee sting in the extent of how a day (or days) the victim will have - and to consider that in a very young, very old, or otherwise sick person, their might even prove a case that warrants admission to the hospital (as opposed to treat em and street em at an ER visit)

Check out this youtube video posted by a board member. I daresay that what he suffered is as bad or worse than most Phoneutria bites even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hceNe_eswQg

Medically his would qualify as a moderate envenomation - symptoms more than locally and of significant discomfort but dint require hospitalization or antivenom

In the end - widow bite likely to be worse
 

cacoseraph

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good answer, tara!


i definitely agree that in enough documented bites with the highest end of tarantulas eventually a baby or old person would get stamped. heck, i even think an adult with a moderately bad preexisting condition of just the right nature could get killed, especially if they didn't seek medical attention.


fun fact: in a fairly easily google-able study i saw a chart of average kill times for various tarantula species when a standard amount is injected into mice in a standard way. Grammostola rosea was tied for fastest with some of the Haplopelma and an african or two. food for thought =P
 

ophiophagus

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I was bitten on my big toe by and escaped H.mac and it was very painful for about an hour then it went numb for maybe a half hour. The pain was something like a sting from a yellow jacket maybe a little worse. I would say that compared to the hours of pain and severe muscle cramping that I've seen in widow bite victims the H.mac doesn't really compare.
 

Anubis77

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I was bitten on my big toe by and escaped H.mac and it was very painful for about an hour then it went numb for maybe a half hour. The pain was something like a sting from a yellow jacket maybe a little worse. I would say that compared to the hours of pain and severe muscle cramping that I've seen in widow bite victims the H.mac doesn't really compare.
One instance of envenomation on one individual isn't representative of the average effect of a venom. It sounds like it was a dry bite.
 

Scorpionking20

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LD50 isn't worth much when dealing with Ts. Most Ts venom has been designed to eliminate the rodent threat.

I think it'd be best to get many species to bite several people. I'd actually submit myself to this for a reasonable amount of money (1 bite a month so I can recover, with a few hundred bucks for the days I may have to miss out on work!)

Anyways, I don't think H macs would compare to a widow. Widows venom is several times more potent than even Sydney Funnel Webs or Brazilian Wanderers. They just don't have as much venom to inject.
 

JanPhilip

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Scorpionking20 said:
Most Ts venom has been designed to eliminate the rodent threat.
As this seems to be a rather often represented theory on the internet, I was wondering if there is any scientific proof of this?
If this was true, you would expect tarantulas from regions with a high rodentpopulation (and therefore threat), to be alot more venomous to rodents, as the pressure for selection is much higher. Is this the case? Are rodents the main threat for theropsids, and is their venom adapted more to protect them from predators, then to catch prey?
 

Scorpionking20

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As this seems to be a rather often represented theory on the internet, I was wondering if there is any scientific proof of this?
If this was true, you would expect tarantulas from regions with a high rodentpopulation (and therefore threat), to be alot more venomous to rodents, as the pressure for selection is much higher. Is this the case? Are rodents the main threat for theropsids, and is their venom adapted more to protect them from predators, then to catch prey?
Very good questions! Reading across the internet, without having time to go get references (I'm sure you can google!) I've seen that Ts do in fact have venom more aimed towards killing threats rather than subduing an insect.

I think the fangs on Ts are more than adequate for their usual prey, but I too would LOVE to see some actual evidence. I've read things just as you have, but I have yet to see T venom tested on rodents vs reptiles/other mammals.

Perhaps Ts aren't enough of a threat for the scientific community to do more work on their venom potency. I'd be one to support the effort to get that real, raw data you are talking about.

As a side note...has anybody seen how Ts (scorpions too) tend to aim for the eye if they are given rodent prey? If you watch youtube videos you could see how often they bite through an eye socket. I find that very interesting. It's like they can see a weakness and can penetrate to the brain for an even quicker kill. I wonder how that would correspond to the venom potency for rodents?
 

Ingar

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As this seems to be a rather often represented theory on the internet, I was wondering if there is any scientific proof of this?
If this was true, you would expect tarantulas from regions with a high rodentpopulation (and therefore threat), to be alot more venomous to rodents, as the pressure for selection is much higher. Is this the case? Are rodents the main threat for theropsids, and is their venom adapted more to protect them from predators, then to catch prey?
The toxicity of venom in Theraphosids always is lower than in some true spiders, because of their brutal strenght. For tarantula is enough to strongly grag and penetrate long sharp fangs (like to hit with a knife in several times), - and a venom just help to end up a halfoverpowered victim.
In comparison, Latrodectus have only a fragile body structure - no strenght or massiveness.. But here is another tactics - sticky web which catches a prey with a several times biger body than predator have itselfs! And what now? So the potent venom only can kill purely faster a big pray without a close contact fighting - just for safe.
Can you imagine Latrodectus fight a mouse with only T's venom? I think it would end with smashed little spider. :D
Its a main explaination to relationship between body size and toxicity of venom - which is logical. But there is far another reasons which explains why some true spiders are more potent than another little ones - same way with Ts.
PS: I can tell that H. mac's bite will make you like a little girl (expect allergic, children and old - like one said here), but window's bite will make you to the hospital - and if not, to dye.
 

Ingar

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As a side note...has anybody seen how Ts (scorpions too) tend to aim for the eye if they are given rodent prey? If you watch youtube videos you could see how often they bite through an eye socket. I find that very interesting. It's like they can see a weakness and can penetrate to the brain for an even quicker kill.
If you will watch those silly videos more carrefuully than you did, then youll see that it's because of pray locomotion. Mouses allways comes with head topside to T, which is just sitting at this moment.
There is nothing special of Ts at this point. Overpowering prey allways bennefits with catching from above and thats all. I also can opose with videos, where T catches mouse's butt :D
 

Scorpionking20

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Black widows won't always send you to the hospital. Even before anti venom was introduced, less than 5% of confirmed bites were fatal. It's potent, so don't get me wrong. But its not a case of "if you get bit, you go to the hospital or die."

To Ingar...A butt is huge, an eye on a fast moving target is quite the hit. Given random strike chances over the body, and the large amount of hits on an eye, I'd say there is more to the story than random luck. ;)
 

Ingar

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Black widows won't always send you to the hospital. Even before anti venom was introduced, less than 5% of confirmed bites were fatal. It's potent, so don't get me wrong. But its not a case of "if you get bit, you go to the hospital or die."

To Ingar...A butt is huge, an eye on a fast moving target is quite the hit. Given random strike chances over the body, and the large amount of hits on an eye, I'd say there is more to the story than random luck. ;)
OK about those windows, because there even more can be a lot of exceptions... Only one ral windov in my live I have seen from my friend - it was L. mactans AF :D
But you know - just imagine how it is possible to target isolate objects on big target one without eyesight. Because Ts are blind generally. I think it is because you want to believe, that Ts have some special abilities, because I almoustly have been seen a lot of vids where mouse "gives" it head to sitting T - so it is my conclusion. And I see that there is no logical scientific explanation on your statement. Those are light - minded assumptions. Maybe in some other conditions there is many other factors which leads to endings like this, but its not because of some special T's abilities - believe me, because I'm a scientist.
PS: Sorry if I soundet too cocky - I want just to explain :)
 

cacoseraph

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a lot of my predators tend to strike towards the head/neck region. i think it is reasonable to assume some do try to target the head... but i think it is more to do with what direction the target is moving in, rather than actually seeing any eyes or whatever. most bugs have pretty crappy eyesight. even mantids are really only good at movement detection rather than precise vision. some of the jumpers and net caster spiders probably do have fairly precise vision... but only to a range of like 5-6" inches at most. and i believe they have fixed lens systems which mean they can't alter the focal length of their eyes


edit:
my centipedes go for the head a lot... and they are either blind or only have 4 pairs of fairly crappy simple eyes. i think they do it by feel and tremble sense
 

Ingar

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my centipedes go for the head a lot... and they are either blind or only have 4 pairs of fairly crappy simple eyes. i think they do it by feel and tremble sense
I still disagree - there is no special abilities. Whats wrong with you people? It's almoustly works because of that simple attacking mechanism - from upside to down.
 

cacoseraph

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lol, boy howdy i hope you are a super mega expert in invert behaviour. otherwise your posts just kind of sound like know-it-all douchiness :)


in one sitting i've seen over half my centipedes handle the head of their prey when live fed. considering that is the part that hurts you on a lot of what they eat i don't think it is that far outside the realm of possibility


oh and my friend has sent me pics of his centipedes immobilizing the stinger of a scorpion when they feed on them... something he reports they do quite often



i think you are underestimating what our little bugs can do :)
 

Scorpionking20

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I still disagree - there is no special abilities. Whats wrong with you people? It's almoustly works because of that simple attacking mechanism - from upside to down.
You are disagreeing with something not there. Nobody is saying they have super powers. I don't recall saying they "see" the eyes and aim for them.

With their sensitive hairs, I don't see how they couldn't "sense" where an eye is (perhaps moisture?) and strike to that.

Related to the poster with pedes...I know what you mean! Years ago I saw a Jewish beetle cut off the stinger on an emp scorpion. Somehow bugs know what they are doing.
 

Ingar

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lol, boy howdy i hope you are a super mega expert in invert behaviour. otherwise your posts just kind of sound like know-it-all douchiness :)
Im not an "expert" - thats the main designation of almoustly all of you here which you want to stick to some knowledgable person.. The answer is: I'm a scientist. I have a huge interests in arachnology and experience of many years in studying inverts.
Dont insult me with your denying attitude..:(
 

Ingar

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oh and my friend has sent me pics of his centipedes immobilizing the stinger of a scorpion when they feed on them... something he reports they do quite often
That think is more reasonable - it can be some logic envolved instinct.


By the way - there is no underestimation in my statements. I only see you making unprooved hypothesies - some are interesting, but some of them doesn't contain any biologycal logic.
 
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