Avicularia avicularia care

[viper69]

"as often as it will eat"

Does that constitute power feeding? I personally want to fall some place in the middle myself... both quickly achieving good size but yet prolonging life span a little. I feed slings "as often as it will eat" but once i move from fruit flys to dubia its a bit more controlled.

Not IMO, slings job is to eat, grow to avoid predators particularly when small. As for juvi/adults. I feed them when hungry. It's pretty easy to tell when Avics are hungry. Mine don't have food in the container 24/7. But if one of my Ts wants to eat 5 crickets at once, they can have it. After all, they know when they are hungry and how much they will eat, NOT me

I'm not one of those people that believes in 1 cricket/week regardless of age/size etc.

I never use FFs, they aren't that nutritious.

 

[viper69]

I have read many places though that basically there are only so many molts in a t's life span. More frequent feeding can equal more frequent molting or so it has been said... in the end shortening the over all life span.

All animals have a finite life span. But so many molts, not true. Ts can molt more quickly if they lose limbs etc.

The truth is no one to my knowledge has conducted a scientific study on this. If you have primary literature on this, link us up.

The places you HAVE read this, link us up too, I'd be interested in reading them.

 

[viper69]

Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere. If not we should file for a grant... I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.

The only genetic testing done in Ts is for taxonomy primarily, and not whole genome. There is no sequenced genome in the database. I don't get the impression you have a full understanding of the type of research done on Ts. I like your curiosity, it would be smart of you to read the primary literature, or at least survey it to get an idea of what type of research is done regarding Ts. It falls in 3 main categories generally speaking

1. Taxonomy
2. Toxin studies
3. Silk studies- and to be honest, prob 99% of silk research is done with true spiders not Ts.

There's very little research done on T physiology. Simply because there is no money for it due to politics primarily.

The majority of physiology research was done in the 60s-80s.

 

[Andrea82]

That may be the why it doesnt work but what we need to understand more i think is what causes it in the first place. Does food and temperature play a role in a already mature male T trying to molt after it no longer should.


The instar though is in fact the number of molts yes? Regardless of the actual sling size?



I agree we need more data no two ways about that. We might start to get an idea though... if we had say three people with at least 10 years of records on even one T a piece. If all 3 had 20 molts before death.... well... It would be a good start to proving they have a certain number of molts. Of course if one has 10 and one has 20 and the 3rd has 30... well that would be a good start to proving other wise. Assuming in all cases they lived equally healthy lives and all died of "old age".

I still feel as though the information may already be out there. One thing that seems true regardless of what jobby I'm dealing in... I am seldom the first person to think of something. Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere. If not we should file for a grant... I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.





I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.

I didn't know diet was a cause for wet molts. What kind of diet has this effect?

 

[viper69]

It is pretty widely excepted though that a T's genetic makeup dictates only a certain number of molts before its body can no longer handle it or rather before it molts for the last time.

Widely accepted by who? You are saying their genome dictates a specific number of molts? I think what is more likely is they have a finite life span regardless of the number of molts. That's more logical.

 

[Grimsin]

You know a good place to start might be to find out who and or how they linked calcium and animal protein packed diets to wet molts. That same data may contain some data pertinent to the idea that they have a certain number of molts. Of course... I can't find anything about how it is we came to the conclusion that was the cause of wet molts.

 

[Grimsin]

Widely accepted by who? You are saying their genome dictates a specific number of molts? I think what is more likely is they have a finite life span regardless of the number of molts. That's more logical.

The article i read went something along these lines.... since i cant find it again yet.

Basically it stated that their physical make up and genetics dictated they were only capable of X number of molts before the body could no longer handle it. They could only produce so much of what ever it was called that was necessary for the processes. Many people claim up to a 10 year difference in life spans on females. So the life span itself wouldn't appear to be finite at all. It also further pushes the idea that they only have a certain number of molts rather then a certain amount of time.
Of course we need molt data from these T's of varying life spans to really debate this out... but if we had that... there wouldn't be a debate. Along with diet and temp data.

 

[Trenor]

That may be the why it doesnt work but what we need to understand more i think is what causes it in the first place. Does food and temperature play a role in a already mature male T trying to molt after it no longer should.

I think a mature male T molting after maturity has more to do with good life in captivity than it does with any other factor. In the wild he is more likly to die while roaming to find love (pass on his genes) and thus would not have the chance to molt after maturity. With that in mind, it is more advantageous for him to develop bigger pedipalps to help with passing on his genes (carries more sperm at the ready) over small ones that would let him molt a second time. So, I don't think food or temp matters in stuck molts for MM Ts.

The instar though is in fact the number of molts yes? Regardless of the actual sling size?

This is true but you'll not that hardly anyone refers to Ts by instars over 4i or 5i. This is because they use actual size after a T has got bigger. When buying I know(usually) a 1i isn't eating yet and a 2i just started. While a 3i has molted once since it started eating. From there it doesn't matter as much and people go with actual size to describe the sling.

I agree we need more data no two ways about that. We might start to get an idea though... if we had say three people with at least 10 years of records on even one T a piece. If all 3 had 20 molts before death.... well... It would be a good start to proving they have a certain number of molts. Of course if one has 10 and one has 20 and the 3rd has 30... well that would be a good start to proving other wise. Assuming in all cases they lived equally healthy lives and all died of "old age".

I still feel as though the information may already be out there. One thing that seems true regardless of what jobby I'm dealing in... I am seldom the first person to think of something. Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere. If not we should file for a grant... I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.

This would give us some data but how do we define what we have? How do we know if they made it full life term and died of old age? We have trouble knowing when people die from old age and we have a lot more studies on them than we will ever have on Ts. Like with all animals we will have some that live longer than other and some wont make it very long at all. It would be interesting to see but would be a long way from proving anything.

I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.

If you have actual information on studies for this I'd like to read it because I've seen no valid information to show that either of those things are linked to wet molts.


I like that you are curious but it's easy on the internet to pass of speculation for truth when there is very little proof it is. That's why if blogs or websites lay down information as facts I check for sources. Often, you'll find it's just what this person thinks and they haven't actual facts to back it up at all. I have a lot of things I have observed about T care that isn't backed up by studies but when I present it I always try to present it as my opinion/observances rather than fact.

This is why a teacher I had in middle school is still telling kids information about Columbus that isn't even remotely true. She heard it and didn't bother to fact check and there are a lot of kids repeating wrong things about how my country was discovered.

 

[Grimsin]

Not IMO, slings job is to eat, grow to avoid predators particularly when small. As for juvi/adults. I feed them when hungry. It's pretty easy to tell when Avics are hungry. Mine don't have food in the container 24/7. But if one of my Ts wants to eat 5 crickets at once, they can have it. After all, they know when they are hungry and how much they will eat, NOT me

I'm not one of those people that believes in 1 cricket/week regardless of age/size etc.

I never use FFs, they aren't that nutritious.

I use FF's with certain slings to eliminate the burrowing and disappearing dubia. The avic is super easy to tell, at least mine, they post up at the entrance to their nest and just look ready to pounce. I also feed the slings getting the FF's endlessly because of the lack of size and nutrition. Always FF's in the enclosure they can grab at any time. My avic versi sling would pack up to 4 in his mouth at once. Vary carefully placing all their butts in first. He would have 4 little heads sticking out of his mouth. Looked like the FF's were tucked in for a nap... a real long nap! My Nhandu on the other hand... never sure if he wants food or what hes up to. Of course hes my first real burrowing T and all my previous terrestrial T's did not burrow... not even a little. This guy is some kind of miner but makes it hard to know if hes hungry. With him i drop it in if he trys to bury it or if it goes in his hole and he drags it back out and trys to cover his entrance i can only assume hes not hungry then.

 

[Grimsin]

This is why a teacher I had in middle school is still telling kids information about Columbus that isn't even remotely true. She heard it and didn't both to fact check and there are a lot of kids repeating wrong things about how my country was discovered.

Too true...

I will hunt down the sites that seemed to have the most information on the calcium being linked to wet molts again when i have time... supposed to be working right now as it is haha! As far as number of places that are linking of calcium to wet molts... it was stated on numerous sites. It seems that the data may be contrived from a large number of reports from people feeding their T's mice and lizards and having wet molts. Also lots of the dubia selling sites make exclamations about not gut loading with calcium or animal proteins... few state why its an issue. Just like with human food though.... retailers will put what ever they feel is necessary on a package to make you buy it... even tell you poison is perfectly safe. I have seen many people here say not to feed your T's crickets from the pet store because they were gutloaded for lizards and chalked full of calcium. Aside from the obvious not vary nutritious for any critter... gut loaded or not. Again we need some more data lol. Seriously if this information isn't out there maybe we should go for that grant... Is the whole calcium in crickets causing wet molts just a ploy by dubia breeders to get people to switch from crickets? lol....

 

[Grimsin]

Jamie's T's for starters is one place claiming calcium has been linked to wet molts... its on this page nearing the bottom.
https://jamiestarantulas.com/tips/ . Here is another page claiming the opposite, how ever what they say about mice lacking calcium is something i would argue against for sure. http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/CalciumMoltMyth.html If they did lack calcium... they wouldn't be the preferred feeder of a reptile who needs to consume lots of calcium for healthy living.

Edit: I will concede that MAYBE when a pinkie is still completely soft that it has less calcium do to lack of bone formation.

 

[Grimsin]

Just an added thought... I was under the impression that the calcium/animal protein factor was also why we should not feed dog food or cat food to our dubia that are being feed to T's but was perfectly great to feed dubia going to a reptile. Irony to this is... if you are buying cheap cat or dog food that is mostly grain products then why not feed it to the dubia going to the T's ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!! My wife on the other hand buys the expensive stuff with zero grains and nothing but animal because its "healthier"... shes a vet and dog trainer... so i don't argue with her. lol.

Google Dubie Diet and then read the wiki about it it even says there

"Too much protein in dubia may cause gout and potentially death in a colony and animals that eat them" of course also says citation needed. But still...

 

[Grimsin]

Also... backing up a bit.. to power feeding... Tom's has listed in the Con's of "power feeding" which from what i gather from what he says is simply feeding as much as they will eat.... so maybe really what we should call what goes on is... Normal feeding... and Power Starving. Lol. But anyhow listed in the Con's it says shortens T's life span.... So maybe anything other then letting them eat of their own free will would be more of a starving and starving in turn prolongs life. https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/


Can someone please get a babelfish so we might be able to just ask the T... what is a healthy diet for you? How do we know if your over stuffing yourself? Approximately how many inverts and of what size how often for you to feel satiated? and how few will leave you hungry?

 

[cold blood]

I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.

Wet molts linked to diet....lol, that's funny. Truth about wet molts, no one knows how or why they happen, it seems more like part of the new exo either didn't fully develop properly, or it became stuck to the old molt.

If this was the cause of wet molts, it would have been made obvious to hobbyists decades ago.

I didn't know diet was a cause for wet molts. What kind of diet has this effect?

Its not.

You know a good place to start might be to find out who and or how they linked calcium and animal protein packed diets to wet molts. That same data may contain some data pertinent to the idea that they have a certain number of molts. Of course... I can't find anything about how it is we came to the conclusion that was the cause of wet molts.

The calcium myth has been busted a long time ago, so long ago in fact, that its just common knowledge to experienced keepers....unfortunately all the old dumb stuff from the past cannot be erased from the internet, so its still out there confusing people.

The article i read went something along these lines.... since i cant find it again yet.

Basically it stated that their physical make up and genetics dictated they were only capable of X number of molts before the body could no longer handle it. They could only produce so much of what ever it was called that was necessary for the processes. Many people claim up to a 10 year difference in life spans on females. So the life span itself wouldn't appear to be finite at all. It also further pushes the idea that they only have a certain number of molts rather then a certain amount of time.
Of course we need molt data from these T's of varying life spans to really debate this out... but if we had that... there wouldn't be a debate. Along with diet and temp data.

I can show you hundreds of people whose lifespan has varied by 50 years or more....genetics is the cause....not because some of them had too much calcium in their diets. A t will molt for as long as it lives, it WON'T die simply because its run out of molts...molts are grown, therefore there's an infinite number...until the t dies.

I use FF's with certain slings to eliminate the burrowing and disappearing dubia. The avic is super easy to tell, at least mine, they post up at the entrance to their nest and just look ready to pounce. I also feed the slings getting the FF's endlessly because of the lack of size and nutrition. Always FF's in the enclosure they can grab at any time. My avic versi sling would pack up to 4 in his mouth at once. Vary carefully placing all their butts in first. He would have 4 little heads sticking out of his mouth. Looked like the FF's were tucked in for a nap... a real long nap! My Nhandu on the other hand... never sure if he wants food or what hes up to. Of course hes my first real burrowing T and all my previous terrestrial T's did not burrow... not even a little. This guy is some kind of miner but makes it hard to know if hes hungry. With him i drop it in if he trys to bury it or if it goes in his hole and he drags it back out and trys to cover his entrance i can only assume hes not hungry then.

FF's on the other hand, have proven to have a detrimental effect on slings, causing limb curling in slings fed FFs for too long. FF's are a supplement, nothing more...personally I'd never utilize them as the pain in the butt far outweighs any limited benefit they might have. Pre-killed prey is a far better choice for feeding your ts.

 

[cold blood]

Also... backing up a bit.. to power feeding... Tom's has listed in the Con's of "power feeding" which from what i gather from what he says is simply feeding as much as they will eat.... so maybe really what we should call what goes on is... Normal feeding... and Power Starving. Lol. But anyhow listed in the Con's it says shortens T's life span.... So maybe anything other then letting them eat of their own free will would be more of a starving and starving in turn prolongs life. https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/

As I said before, this info should be ignored...his list isn't based on reality, just wild unproven speculation. Thousands of people's experiences saying otherwise holds more water in my eyes.

Yes, as I mentioned, a MM can indeed have a shortened lifespan as their physiology is greatly different...the whole molting "problems" in MMs is a ridiculous thing to even mention and only shows a lack of understanding of the life of a MM. They mature, breed and die, they're not meant to survive past that ultimate molt, it has nothing to do with diet, husbandry or anything, its just how it is.

"Stretched abdominal skin can rupture more easily"

This ^^, is literally the valid con he listed....the others made me laugh.

I have slings from MMs who were grown up as quickly as possible (as I said, the term power feeding is a reptile term, that has no place in the t hobby, so I don't use it), maturing at 10 months from birth, and I've never seen or heard of molting issues as a result of faster growth, that biologically doesn't even make much sense. Any t can have a bad molt, whether is had a heavy feeding schedule or a light one.

Always read the disclaimers on these types of articles, and this is case in point.

"Now, it should be mentioned that some of the cons, like molting and fertility issues, have not been proven and are merely speculation"

This is exactly my point.^^

 

[Grimsin]

Wet molts linked to diet....lol, that's funny. Truth about wet molts, no one knows how or why they happen, it seems more like part of the new exo either didn't fully develop properly, or it became stuck to the old molt.

It is possible that diet caused it. You just stated no one knows there for anything is possible still.

I can show you hundreds of people whose lifespan has varied by 50 years or more....genetics is the cause....not because some of them had too much calcium in their diets. A t will molt for as long as it lives, it WON'T die simply because its run out of molts...molts are grown, therefore there's an infinite number...until the t dies.

50 human years? are we talking about humans??? Um but bad diets have been linked to early deaths and all sorts of problems if we are talking about humans. Genetics has really not been linked to longevity in humans at all. In fact... the shorter life spans and smaller statures of our predecessors have totally been linked to diet and medicine.

Also if anywhere i said that the number of molts and genetics had anything to do with the actual life span let me clarify now. What my research into the idea suggests is this... That a T has a certain number of molts before it can no longer do so, from the sounds of things this is not being argued at least not about male T's. It also suggests that especially Male T's and possibly females too only live so long after molting for their final time, we have not addressed this. It also suggests that your T's molting schedule and growth rate may dictate just how long that life span will really be. It suggests the way to alter growth rate and molting times is via diet and temperature and this could alter life span. It was stated else where i simply reiterated that genetics dictate a limit to number of molts a T is capable of. This... is completely still a possibility.



There is a T that lives to 50 years??? I thought only females molt as long as they live? Whats the use of the word penultimate in the T hobby then?

I love how the myth was busted about the calcium but yet no one knows about wet molts... we have to know something about them to know calcium over dosing didn't do it, so witch is it? A bit of a conundrum you have there...

 

[cold blood]

It is possible that diet caused it. You just stated no one knows there for anything is possible still.



50 human years? are we talking about humans??? Um but bad diets have been linked to early deaths and all sorts of problems if we are talking about humans. Genetics has really not been linked to longevity in humans at all. In fact... the shorter life spans and smaller statures of our predecessors have totally been linked to diet and medicine.

Also if anywhere i said that the number of molts and genetics had anything to do with the actual life span let me clarify now. What my research into the idea suggests is this... That a T has a certain number of molts before it can no longer do so, from the sounds of things this is not being argued at least not about male T's. It also suggests that especially Male T's and possibly females too only live so long after molting for their final time, we have not addressed this. It also suggests that your T's molting schedule and growth rate may dictate just how long that life span will really be. It suggests the way to alter growth rate and molting times is via diet and temperature and this could alter life span.



There is a T that lives to 50 years??? I thought only females molt as long as they live? Whats the use of the word penultimate in the T hobby then?

You clearly missed this..."If this was the cause of wet molts, it would have been made obvious to hobbyists decades ago."

Too many people feed heavy feeding schedules, it would be very obvious if it were the cause of wet molts, as we would see a spike in wet molts for these well fed specimens...we have not.

My point regarding humans wasn't a literal correllatioin, just the point that different specimens will live different life spans.


G. porteri/rosea are known to live to around 40, and its been speculated that they may actually be able to live even longer, but that wasn't my point, as that was, again, speculation....you took that too literally. And if you don't think genetics plays a role in lifespan, you are wrong. I mentioned genetics, NOT YOU.

You are correct though, ts with shorter life spans do tend to grow significantly faster, with much much shorter molting periods.

The term penultimate is a term used to describe a male that will mature in its next molt....it has no use when talking about females.

All ts molt their entire lives, maturing for a male is the beginning of the end for the specimen.

 

[Grimsin]

As I said before, this info should be ignored...his list isn't based on reality, just wild unproven speculation. Thousands of people's experiences saying otherwise holds more water in my eyes.

Yes, as I mentioned, a MM can indeed have a shortened lifespan as their physiology is greatly different...the whole molting "problems" in MMs is a ridiculous thing to even mention and only shows a lack of understanding of the life of a MM. They mature, breed and die, they're not meant to survive past that ultimate molt, it has nothing to do with diet, husbandry or anything, its just how it is.

"Stretched abdominal skin can rupture more easily"

This ^^, is literally the valid con he listed....the others made me laugh.

I have slings from MMs who were grown up as quickly as possible (as I said, the term power feeding is a reptile term, that has no place in the t hobby, so I don't use it), maturing at 10 months from birth, and I've never seen or heard of molting issues as a result of faster growth, that biologically doesn't even make much sense. Any t can have a bad molt, whether is had a heavy feeding schedule or a light one.

Always read the disclaimers on these types of articles, and this is case in point.

"Now, it should be mentioned that some of the cons, like molting and fertility issues, have not been proven and are merely speculation"

This is exactly my point.^^

See the issue i have right now is... only ONE PERSON is claiming all this.. but yet i can dig up tons of sites and quotes saying exactly the opposite of what your saying.... You claim 1000's of people claim something where are these claims? Not to mention what are the fine details because without the fine details of individual cases... Your doing the same thing your claiming they are doing... lol.

 

[Marijan2]

Genetics has really not been linked to longevity in humans at all.

Wrong, it has been proved that certain genetic traits increased human lifespan. http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0024643.html
Given you couldn't even google and research this in less than 5 minutes i think it is pointless for you to make baseless predictions about moulting processes and longevity in tarantulas

 

[cold blood]

And if you are going to just play the disagree icon, I could hand you a bunch....doing that just lends the conversation to less civility IME.