Attention Pokie keepers

[REEFSPIDER]

From what I saw on those fish boards asking fish hobbyist to care about the wild fish population of that species was a bit too much as well. I get what you're saying but no one on those boards seem to give a rats a about the wild population either. They were just pissed they couldn't get one cause they were on an endangered list. Which, at times, reminds me of other hobbies.

Lets be honest though, it's not just people of asian decent either. How about our leather back turtles? Most people have never even seen one. I have a nice endangered wood pecker in my back yard. I can show you the same thing all over the planet with just about every group of people.

I completely agree and i am for conservation. Its not only people from asia who disregard the value of non human life.

 

[EulersK]

Captive Poecilotheria
Poecilotheria species are commonly bred in captivity by amateur hobbyists as well as vendors, and are available as captive-bred young in the pet trade in the United States, Europe, and elsewhere (see Trade). However, while rearing and keeping of captive individuals by hobbyists and vendors has provided information on life history of these species, these captive individuals hold limited conservation value to the species in the wild. Individuals in the pet trade descend from wild individuals from unknown locations, have undocumented lineages, come from limited stock (e.g., see Gabriel 2012, p. 18) and are bred without knowledge or consideration of their genetics. They also likely include an unknown number of hybrid individuals resulting from intentional crosses, or unintentional crosses resulting from confusion and difficulty in species taxonomy and identification (Gabriel 2011a, pp. 25-26; Gabriel et al. 2005, p. 4; Gabriel 2003, pp. 89-90). Further, many are likely several generations removed from wild ancestors and thus may be inbred or maladapted to conditions in the wild. In short, captive individuals held or sold as pets do not adhere to the IUCN guidelines for reintroductions and other conservation translocations (IUCN 2013, entire).

I think that all of this is being taken way too far. What Trenor laid out is a direct quote explicitly stating that they want nothing to do with the hobby. How is this publication anything but a good thing?

I understand that it's our knee jerk reaction to be worried about our hobby, but come on, actually read what was written. We preach education on this site like no other, and that sentiment certainly applies here.

 

[viper69]

I don't understand why people are all going crazy. The information in the link provided by 14Pokies doesn't address captive populations. It speaks about wild populations. I get the impression virtually no one read his link at all.

There's some decent distribution info in there as well, some inhabiting wet vs dry forest etc. Who saw that?

Another way to look at it to examine what has happened in the hobby already when a species is added to these lists. Consider the CITIES Brachypelma the only controls are if the are exported/imported then the exporter has to provide the paperwork to the importer proving they are legal WC imports or offspring of wc/cb. After they are here in US past customs they don't have any controls unless you try to export them. Many of us have CITIES controlled Brachy's that do not require any paperwork or have any controls on them as long as they stay within our borders

I was wondering why it took so long for someone to chime in with some common sense and mention CITES and Brachy. I don't see people up in arms about the laws governing Brachys????

Its not only people from asia who disregard the value of non human life.

It's all people.

 

[cold blood]

Ime there are only 2 groups of people that care about maintaining healthy fish populations....fisheries biologists, and sport fishermen (as opposed to meat fishermen). These 2 groups are respinsible for the majority of fisheries conservation practices.

 

[Philth]

It's my understanding that the species listed under the ESA would become illegal to transport over state lines, as well as importing them ( much like we saw with the large constrictors in the U.S.). That would certainly have a great effect on the hobby. The U.S. is still importing Poecilotheria spiderlings from Europe all the time. Although it may seem like we have a great deal of Poecioltheria here, there are not enough breeders to sustain the captive populations here. Species would certainly die out and be lost in the U.S. hobby. I'm all for protecting wild populations, but I don't agree with it regulating captive populations. 20+ years of collecting, and I've never seen or been offered a WC Pokie.

Later, Tom

 

[14pokies]

It's my understanding that the species listed under the ESA would become illegal to transport over state lines, as well as importing them ( much like we saw with the large constrictors in the U.S.). That would certainly have a great effect on the hobby. The U.S. is still importing Poecilotheria spiderlings from Europe all the time.


Later, Tom

This is what I've been thinking the entire time.. In some way it's going to effect our ability to move these Ts between states and continents.. Unless Trenor is right and they consider ALL captive pokies hybrid trash...

 

[mack1855]

Ime there are only 2 groups of people that care about maintaining healthy fish populations....fisheries biologists, and sport fishermen (as opposed to meat fishermen). These 2 groups are respinsible for the majority of fisheries conservation practices.

Hobbiest in the saltwater and freshwater aquarium care deeply about the eco-systems,and the sustainable oceans life.
Having keep both for 40+ years,both salt and freshwater ,fish only and reefs,including obligate corallivores (chaetodon and chelmon butterflys,apistogrammas from
S.America and pelmatochromis from Africa,we as enthusiast care deeply about wild polpulations,world wide.
And that includes sustainable populations of oceanic fish,whether they are Bluefin tuna,macakrel,or hammerheads.
I spent years and thousands for my reef tanks over the years.Then to be told I don't care about the eco-systems planet wide
is a little hard to take.

 

[mack1855]

I'm going to post again,so forgive me.
Look,the OP was to alert everyone that there was government legislation considered.It affects our hobby.Period.
whether it affects our ability to keep certain genius remains to be seen.However it needs to be brought up.

I agree that there are government agencys that work hard to protect natural resources.And I'm all for it.
I don't think we worry about the lack of WC pokies,or any other T genius/species.Its the restrictions that are
a by product of regulations.
As in,lets stop any blackmarket importing of the said animal,by making it illegal to keep them/sell them/bred them.
Or ship over jurisdictions.There is already a city in my state of Colorado trying to make it illegal to keep any,and I repeat,ANY
venomous animal,regardless of size.And guess what that includes.

 

[EulersK]

Unless Trenor is right and they consider ALL captive pokies hybrid trash.

It's not his opinion - they very clearly lay out that they believe all hobby pokies to be hybrids. So they don't care about our supply.

 

[advan]

It's my understanding that the species listed under the ESA would become illegal to transport over state lines, as well as importing them ( much like we saw with the large constrictors in the U.S.). That would certainly have a great effect on the hobby. The U.S. is still importing Poecilotheria spiderlings from Europe all the time. Although it may seem like we have a great deal of Poecioltheria here, there are not enough breeders to sustain the captive populations here. Species would certainly die out and be lost in the U.S. hobby. I'm all for protecting wild populations, but I don't agree with it regulating captive populations. 20+ years of collecting, and I've never seen or been offered a WC Pokie.

Later, Tom

THIS.

How many commenting in this thread actually left a comment two years ago when this was first brought up by USFWS? http://arachnoboards.com/threads/attn-poecilotheria-owner-breeder-or-dealer.258494/

 

[14pokies]

It's not his opinion - they very clearly lay out that they believe all hobby pokies to be hybrids. So they don't care about our supply.

There is a number in the first link that will hopefully help clear things up. I'll call monday and post any information that's given..

 

[Thistles]

There was an article in the Washington Times today about this. Not allowing them to cross state lines is definitely a thing, according to the article. A little low tech, but:

 

[Trenor]

There was an article in the Washington Times today about this. Not allowing them to cross state lines is definitely a thing, according to the article. A little low tech, but: View attachment 227396

Yeah, here is a excerpt from this article.

Fish and Wildlife Service spokeswoman Vanessa Kauffman said listing the tarantulas would allow the agency to require permits for U.S. citizens seeking to import the spiders or buy or sell them across state lines.

 

[14pokies]

Well I tryed not too.. But I told you so...

 

[Walker253]

You win this time @14pokies ...back to the drawing board.

But honestly, to require, as the author puts it, "a hard to get and very expensive" captive breeding permit, is backwards thinking. The powers that be should encourage breeding and if the desire is to actually protect the species named, they should help to coordinate such an effort, not deter it. My belief is deforestation and human encroachment is far more devastating than the pet trade in their wild population numbers.

I would certainly hope that many from this board contribute well thought out arguments to be submitted to the USFW by the Feb 13, 2017 deadline.

 

[14pokies]

You win this time @14pokies ...back to the drawing board.

But honestly, to require, as the author puts it, "a hard to get and very expensive" captive breeding permit, is backwards thinking. The powers that be should encourage breeding and if the desire is to actually protect the species named, they should help to coordinate such an effort, not deter it. My belief is deforestation and human encroachment is far more devastating than the pet trade in their wild population numbers.

I would certainly hope that many from this board contribute well thought out arguments to be submitted to the USFW by the Feb 13, 2017 deadline.

Na I didn't win we all lose if this legeslation is put into effect...

 

[Philth]

But honestly, to require, as the author puts it, "a hard to get and very expensive" captive breeding permit, is backwards thinking. The powers that be should encourage breeding and if the desire is to actually protect the species named, they should help to coordinate such an effort, not deter it.

The problem is, they look at our hobby spiders as inbred and hybrid mutts, that do no good either way.

Later, Tom

 

[cold blood]

Hobbiest in the saltwater and freshwater aquarium care deeply about the eco-systems,and the sustainable oceans life.
Having keep both for 40+ years,both salt and freshwater ,fish only and reefs,including obligate corallivores (chaetodon and chelmon butterflys,apistogrammas from
S.America and pelmatochromis from Africa,we as enthusiast care deeply about wild polpulations,world wide.
And that includes sustainable populations of oceanic fish,whether they are Bluefin tuna,macakrel,or hammerheads.
I spent years and thousands for my reef tanks over the years.Then to be told I don't care about the eco-systems planet wide
is a little hard to take.

Caring and actively taling part in the populations and their habitat improvement and futures are two vastly differrent things that should not be confused.

 

[mack1855]

Caring and actively taling part in the populations and their habitat improvement and futures are two vastly differrent things that should not be confused

And how is that different in respect to T keepers vs saltwater hobbyist,s.Or herp caregivers?
Look,i am into T,s,and will never accuse anyone who cares about their animals as not caring
about the environment,or sustainable habitat.No matter what they keep.

The problem is, they look at our hobby spiders as inbred and hybrid mutts, that do no good either way.

This is what the problem is.Instead of looking at us,hobbyiest and enthusiasts,as a solution to dwindling T populations
they see as no use to anyone.And that really is to sad.

 

[Venom1080]

wow, being a Canadian T hobbyist might be a advantage for once.
best of luck tho, guys.