Attention Pokie keepers

[Trenor]

My point is they are not making the hobby pokies illegal. They are not going to come to your house and take your pokies. They will not care if you send your MM pokes to someone else in the US to breed. We have a lot of all of these species to most likely keep them going in the hobby for a long time.

 

[mack1855]

My point is they are not making the hobby pokies illegal. They are not going to come to your house and take your pokies. They will not care if you send your MM pokes to someone else in the US to breed. We have a lot of all of these species to most likely keep them going in the hobby for a long time

Well, I hope your optimism is warranted.I guess we will see if the other shoe drops.
IMO,when a government agency becomes involved in a hobby of any kind,it rarely ends well.

 

[Trenor]

Well, I hope your optimism is warranted.I guess we will see if the other shoe drops.
IMO,when a government agency becomes involved in a hobby of any kind,it rarely ends well.

Yeah, cause 155 national forest contain 190 million acres of protected plants and animals has been terrible. All the regulated wild life in the US that is managed by government agencies that are thriving and coming back from where we almost killed them all off. Bald eagles being off the NC endangered list after being on there quite a long time. Terrible things for sure.....

Those tarantulas are likely to end up on the regulated list for a reason. I find it funny (and a bit telling) that people don't seem very upset about that. They seem to care only about the fact that they may not be able to as easily get this new pet when they want it.

Those fish dude listed above are a prefect example. The governments in places where they are native and CERN now allows for them to be farm grown for sale to the pet trade. Yet, I found nothing where any of those same governments are trying to save habitats or re introduce them to the wild. Why is only the big money part of selling to fish keeper thriving while nothing seems to be do to help the wild population? I was unable to find one conservation site/article on those fish. On all the posts I saw on several fish boards (people who should care about them IMO) were people complaining about not being able to get them or the price being high when they could because of the regulation. No one said a thing about the fact that if those governments continue to do nothing in several more generations, a few of the fish they want so bad would not exist in the wild. They just cared about if they could get this regulated fish for their collections.

I enjoy keeping pokies. I know that habitat loss is a big factor (though not the only one) for the decline of the species. That is not likely to change. As the above document pointed out, hobbyist are not an answer for species conservation. Mainly because we don't track who gets mated where. So we are more likely to have hybrids than both wild species mating or an actual conservation breeding program. Regulating the import of WC endangered species is about all the US can do to try to help prevent the pokies we like so much from going extinct. They did mention helping the country with some conservation training in there as well in the above paper. I personally don't see our government trying to do what they can to prevent several species from going extinct as a bad thing.

 

[14pokies]

https://www.fws.gov/Endangered/permits/faq.html On the link I provided in my OP the page did not load correctly when I first came across it. I didn't have access to the information on captive animals being of little importance in relation to conservation efforts, however if you check out the link I provided under the endangered species act of 1973, commerce on poecilotheria could require C.I.T.E.S permits.

I

Only similar to CITES species as in no wild caught imports and probably paperwork to prove captive bred when crossing international borders. Probably wont effect the hobby other than only having genetics in a closed loop to keep the hobby forms going. Those that chose to try to smuggle specimens out of Sri Lanka will probably have a much more severe punishment since they may become listed as endangered.


The paper states the hobby stock has no interest to them because of muddled closed loop genetics that are not DNA tested. it should only effect smugglers or us in the event we let them die out in the hobby.

They noted the hobby had these species in it already. So I doubt it's going to be illegal to own what we have. We will still have the ability to breed and sale the stock we have.


As breeders have new sacks we get new males. It's the same as a lot of other species we can no longer import/export. Baring a massive loss to the hobby stock it likely wont affect us.

This is importing. No you wouldn't be able to get one imported. What paperwork did you get? If it's CITES regulated how did you get any kind of paperwork on the species at all?

Regardless, we have all of these species in the US hobby already. Quite a lot of them. As long as we are not attempting to import in new Ts then it shouldn't matter.

My point is they are not making the hobby pokies illegal. They are not going to come to your house and take your pokies. They will not care if you send your MM pokes to someone else in the US to breed. We have a lot of all of these species to most likely keep them going in the hobby for a long time.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Yea if you can find a way to advertise that you have them for sale without getting busted..

Also What's the point in breeding a species that can get you heavily fined , locked up or both.

What you said is, basically, what happened in Italy after the "legge 213" of 2003, but for every Arachnid, no matter (including the native ones). We survived that, but a lot of buddies quit. I quit the breeding for that: all of a sudden only risks and nothing else.

But now the situation here in Italy is better and we have access to all the Theraphosidae (I've said Theraphosidae, and 'normal' arachnids, not "hot venom" Arachnids such genus Phoneutria, nasty like S.hahni, certain badass scorps etc).

 

[14pokies]

What you said is, basically, what happened in Italy after the "legge 213" of 2003, but for every Arachnid, no matter (including the native ones). We survived that, but a lot of buddies quit. I quit the breeding for that: all of a sudden only risks and nothing else.

But now the situation here in Italy is better and we have access to all the Theraphosidae (I've said Theraphosidae, and 'normal' arachnids, not "hot venom" Arachnids such genus Phoneutria, nasty like S.hahni, certain badass scorps etc).

Your a pretty smart guy Chris, do you mind looking over the link I provided in post #24?

To me from my understanding if this Genus is deemed endangered in the wild it will be heavily regulated in the "commercial sector" as is the case with say Dominican mountain boas or Indian pythons.. Both can be obtained if you have the permits... From what I'm reading this is where the genus poecilotheria is headed.. I may be missing something but to me thats what all of this is pointing at..

 

[Trenor]

https://www.fws.gov/Endangered/permits/faq.html On the link I provided in my OP the page did not load correctly when I first came across it. I didn't have access to the information on captive animals being of little importance in relation to conservation efforts, however if you check out the link I provided under the endangered species act of 1973, commerce on poecilotheria could require C.I.T.E.S permits.

Bold is taken from the quoted website directly:
What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?

Pre-ESA
Specimens of ESA-listed species held in captivity or in a controlled environment on (a) December 28, 1973, or (b) the date of publication in the Federal Register for final species listing, whichever is later, are exempt from the ESA prohibitions against import or export or violation of any regulation pertaining to endangered or threatened species of fish or wildlife promulgated under the ESA, provided such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the specimen was not in the course of a commercial activity. (The ESA and our regulations provide that "commercial activity" is all activities of actual or intended transfer of fish or wildlife from one person to another person in the pursuit of gain or profit, including, but not limited to, the buying or selling of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of facilitating such buying and selling. The ESA also provides, however, that exhibition of commodities by museums or similar cultural or historical organizations is not included in the ESA's definition of "commercial activity."). An affidavit and supporting material documenting pre-ESA status must accompany the shipment of listed species. The pre-ESA exemption does not apply to wildlife, including parts and products, offered for sale or other activities prohibited under the statute. In addition, any endangered or threatened specimens born in captivity from pre-ESA parents are fully protected and are not considered pre-ESA.

So the italic pink would mean that any pokie we acquired before them being listed would be exempt. According to the link you posted above they have yet to be listed and are still taking comments. So all the ones we have now and the ones we get before the final listing will be exempt.

Loans and Gifts
Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment.

Since the above is true. Sending any of them for loans/gifts would be fine. I could gift you some other T and you could later gift me a pokie.

Hybrids
Hybrids are offspring of animals or plants whose parents are different species or subspecies and, in the case of the ESA, at least one parent is a listed species. Hybrid offspring of animals bred or propagated in captivity are not protected by the ESA. It is recommended that breeding records be maintained to show parentage and hybrid status. CITES and laws such as the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA) consider hybrids protected.

As they stated in the first link you gave they consider all the hobby pokies to be little more than hybrids as linage and local etc was not tracked when breeding to keep them a pure species. As hybrids are not regulated the ones in the hobby are not regulated. So hobby is still good.


Again, they will most likely be watching the import sector to make sure new WC pokies are not coming into the country. Any pokies of the listed species coming into the US would need a lot of paperwork. If they do try to bring in WC of these species fines/jail time would likely be high due to them being on the protected list.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Your a pretty smart guy Chris, do you mind looking over the link I provided in post #24?

To me from my understanding if this Genus is deemed endangered in the wild it will be heavily regulated in the "commercial sector" as is the case with say Dominican mountain boas or Indian pythons.. Both can be obtained if you have the permits... From what I'm reading this is where the genus poecilotheria is headed.. I may be missing something but to me thats what all of this is pointing at..

Oh, I was talking in general, my man, because it's not the first time that I hear - definitely IMO not so good news - about genus Poecilotheria. Just few years ago, in some Germany Lander someone discussed about a regulation (that was for the concern about 'Pokies' venom potency only, if I'm not wrong, and not about WC and native habitat) and it's always a riddle to figure out the outcome of those things, not to mention that could be differences between a U.S law about an issue and a UE (or a UE single nation, for that matter) ones about the same issue.

You're probably right, maybe one day some 'Pokie' will hit the CITES league (here not a bad thing, the authorities are very friendly and CITES papers are free for CITES animals keepers) but at the moment I don't have a clue, aside for the fact that the wild in Sri Lanka is seriously at risk, uh.

 

[14pokies]

Bold is taken from the quoted website directly:
What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?

Pre-ESA
Specimens of ESA-listed species held in captivity or in a controlled environment on (a) December 28, 1973, or (b) the date of publication in the Federal Register for final species listing, whichever is later, are exempt from the ESA prohibitions against import or export or violation of any regulation pertaining to endangered or threatened species of fish or wildlife promulgated under the ESA, provided such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the specimen was not in the course of a commercial activity. (The ESA and our regulations provide that "commercial activity" is all activities of actual or intended transfer of fish or wildlife from one person to another person in the pursuit of gain or profit, including, but not limited to, the buying or selling of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of facilitating such buying and selling. The ESA also provides, however, that exhibition of commodities by museums or similar cultural or historical organizations is not included in the ESA's definition of "commercial activity."). An affidavit and supporting material documenting pre-ESA status must accompany the shipment of listed species. The pre-ESA exemption does not apply to wildlife, including parts and products, offered for sale or other activities prohibited under the statute. In addition, any endangered or threatened specimens born in captivity from pre-ESA parents are fully protected and are not considered pre-ESA.

So the italic pink would mean that any pokie we acquired before them being listed would be exempt. According to the link you posted above they have yet to be listed and are still taking comments. So all the ones we have now and the ones we get before the final listing will be exempt.

Loans and Gifts
Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment.

Since the above is true. Sending any of them for loans/gifts would be fine. I could gift you some other T and you could later gift me a pokie.

Hybrids
Hybrids are offspring of animals or plants whose parents are different species or subspecies and, in the case of the ESA, at least one parent is a listed species. Hybrid offspring of animals bred or propagated in captivity are not protected by the ESA. It is recommended that breeding records be maintained to show parentage and hybrid status. CITES and laws such as the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA) consider hybrids protected.

As they stated in the first link you gave they consider all the hobby pokies to be little more than hybrids as linage and local etc was not tracked when breeding to keep them a pure species. As hybrids are not regulated the ones in the hobby are not regulated. So hobby is still good.


Again, they will most likely be watching the import sector to make sure new WC pokies are not coming into the country. Any pokies of the listed species coming into the US would need a lot of paperwork. If they do try to bring in WC of these species fines/jail time would likely be high due to them being on the protected list.

I'm either thick headed or completely stupid because none of what you posted makes me feel any better lol. It is informative though for sure.. So thank you..

Where I'm stuck at is this.. If I want to buy a Burm×indian python hybrid I still need a permit because it has pure indian python blood.. What says we won't have to jump through the same hoops for pokies?

As for jumping through hoops.. So say you loan me a male.. We get a sac you ship back 50% of the slings.. Now what.. If the buyer has to aquire permits that cost more than the spider sales will diminish.. That alone will cause a chain reaction, less sales = less people breeding etc..

The only way I see this not effecting the hobby is that all specimens acquired before the date of the new protected status are completely Grandfathered including there offspring..

We will see right..

 

[Trenor]

If I want to buy a Burm×indian python hybrid I still need a permit because it has pure indian python blood..

I don't know about this personally. However, if you're going on the endangered link you posted above then hybrids are not regulated. So neither should be the quoted python hybrid. Are you sure it's because of endangered species regulation and not due to them being regulated due to size or perceived danger?

If you send me a link to the US python regulations I'll be glad to look it over.

 

[14pokies]

From what I gathered it would make the sales of this species heavily regulated..

@Walker253 please feel free to use the disagree button on any of my posts but please have the courtesy to explain why.

If you can disagree to it then clearly you have some knowledge on the situation and I feel it could be beneficial to myself and others if you shared it..

This post is not about whether I'm right or wrong.I posted it because I felt it could effect the hobby.. When I see government agency's asking for more regulations I get worried as I'm sure many do.. So please put my mind at ease and explain why I don't have to worry about any future regulations on my lovely pokies ...

 

[14pokies]

I don't know about this personally. However, if you're going on the endangered link you posted above then hybrids are not regulated. So neither should be the quoted python hybrid. Are you sure it's because of endangered species regulation and not due to them being regulated due to size or perceived danger?

If you send me a link to the US python regulations I'll be glad to look it over.

Not the best article I can find but with this insane sinusitis flare up I'm having staring at the computer screen is killing me.. It's the best I could find straight out of the gate.. Check out the section on conservation actions.. Hopefully it's helpfull..

 

[Walker253]

Yea if you can find a way to advertise that you have them for sale without getting busted..

Also What's the point in breeding a species that can get you heavily fined , locked up or both.

This amendment could kill this species in the hobby..

From what I gathered it would make the sales of this species heavily regulated..

@Walker253 please feel free to use the disagree button on any of my posts but please have the courtesy to explain why.

If you can disagree to it then clearly you have some knowledge on the situation and I feel it could be beneficial to myself and others if you shared it..

This post is not about whether I'm right or wrong.I posted it because I felt it could effect the hobby.. When I see government agency's asking for more regulations I get worried as I'm sure many do.. So please put my mind at ease and explain why I don't have to worry about any future regulations on my lovely pokies ...

Bro, it was late and I was tired. @Trenor spelled it out quite well. I don't see the need to type on this forum just to accumulate stats. I saw it as an overreaction or at least a misinterpretation by you. Doesn't mean you're a bad guy or anything. This new ruling will have little to nothing to do with current stocks or future breeding of those stocks in the US. It has to do with the importation of wild animals from those areas. Consequences much worse for a person in the US caught bringing in an animal regulated like this than getting a brown box shipment of P murinus from Europe.

I'll remove the "disagree" from your posts in an effort to keep the peace. (Tongue in cheek Bro. Don't overreact to that)

 

[14pokies]

Bro, it was late and I was tired. @Trenor spelled it out quite well. I don't see the need to type on this forum just to accumulate stats. I saw it as an overreaction or at least a misinterpretation by you. Doesn't mean you're a bad guy or anything. This new ruling will have little to nothing to do with current stocks or future breeding of those stocks in the US. It has to do with the importation of wild animals from those areas. Consequences much worse for a person in the US caught bringing in an animal regulated like this than getting a brown box shipment of P murinus from Europe.

I'll remove the "disagree" from your posts in an effort to keep the peace. (Tongue in cheek Bro. Don't overreact to that)

I think your taking my comment the wrong way.. I wasn't mad I just think that negative ratings should be accompanied by an explanation for the sake of knowledge..

There has only been one person that I was actually mad about using the disagree button because he was a troll ( he used to ding alot of us). Lol

I don't necessarily disagree with Trenor or your beliefs at all.. The above link could have no impact on the hobby at all ( lets hope right)...

As for it being an over reaction Eh I don't feel it was.. We live in a world where very few rights can't be overwritten.. I'm raising awareness to an article that I came across... You notice I didn't start ringing bells and screaming they are taking our spiders away! I just said attention pokie keepers and dropped a link.. Do I fear the worst? Yes and I voiced my concerns.. If that makes me an alarmist in your eyes.. Well OK..

It at the most is a case of misinterpretation on my part and as you noticed I have been asking others opinions on the subject for clarification.. Thanks for weighing in bud..

 

[DcubeD]

Bold is taken from the quoted website directly:
What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?

Pre-ESA
Specimens of ESA-listed species held in captivity or in a controlled environment on (a) December 28, 1973, or (b) the date of publication in the Federal Register for final species listing, whichever is later, are exempt from the ESA prohibitions against import or export or violation of any regulation pertaining to endangered or threatened species of fish or wildlife promulgated under the ESA, provided such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the specimen was not in the course of a commercial activity.

"However", in the first paragraph of "What activities are prohibited?", note that "These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals or plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them."

Technically speaking, I read that any existing critter held prior to publication date is not a "violation" of the ESA, but, and a big but, any offspring generated AFTER the publication date WILL be prohibited as they will come into existence (or into your possession) AFTER the date. While the existing critters are "lawfully taken and held" and may be traded or even bred, but any offspring may be considered "unlawfully held" and thus be prohibited.

 

[14pokies]

"However", in the first paragraph of "What activities are prohibited?", note that "These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals or plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them."

Technically speaking, I read that any existing critter held prior to publication date is not a "violation" of the ESA, but, and a big but, any offspring generated AFTER the publication date WILL be prohibited as they will come into existence (or into your possession) AFTER the date. While the existing critters are "lawfully taken and held" and may be traded or even bred, but any offspring may be considered "unlawfully held" and thus be prohibited.

That's the way I'm understanding it also..

 

[Trenor]

"However", in the first paragraph of "What activities are prohibited?", note that "These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals or plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them."

Technically speaking, I read that any existing critter held prior to publication date is not a "violation" of the ESA, but, and a big but, any offspring generated AFTER the publication date WILL be prohibited as they will come into existence (or into your possession) AFTER the date. While the existing critters are "lawfully taken and held" and may be traded or even bred, but any offspring may be considered "unlawfully held" and thus be prohibited.

Yes, but that still doesn't matter. I quoted that section to show how the current ones we have are not at risk to be taken away.

The one that prevents problems with their progeny is the last section I posted.
Hybrids
Hybrids are offspring of animals or plants whose parents are different species or subspecies and, in the case of the ESA, at least one parent is a listed species. Hybrid offspring of animals bred or propagated in captivity are not protected by the ESA. It is recommended that breeding records be maintained to show parentage and hybrid status. CITES and laws such as the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA) consider hybrids protected.

The original link has a section on Captive Poecilotheria that tells that the current stock in the hobby has no conservation value due to hybridization, species crossing and inbreeding. See below:

Captive Poecilotheria
Poecilotheria species are commonly bred in captivity by amateur hobbyists as well as vendors, and are available as captive-bred young in the pet trade in the United States, Europe, and elsewhere (see Trade). However, while rearing and keeping of captive individuals by hobbyists and vendors has provided information on life history of these species, these captive individuals hold limited conservation value to the species in the wild. Individuals in the pet trade descend from wild individuals from unknown locations, have undocumented lineages, come from limited stock (e.g., see Gabriel 2012, p. 18) and are bred without knowledge or consideration of their genetics. They also likely include an unknown number of hybrid individuals resulting from intentional crosses, or unintentional crosses resulting from confusion and difficulty in species taxonomy and identification (Gabriel 2011a, pp. 25-26; Gabriel et al. 2005, p. 4; Gabriel 2003, pp. 89-90). Further, many are likely several generations removed from wild ancestors and thus may be inbred or maladapted to conditions in the wild. In short, captive individuals held or sold as pets do not adhere to the IUCN guidelines for reintroductions and other conservation translocations (IUCN 2013, entire).

So the original link says the hobby Ts are, for all intents and purposes, inbred hybrids. The progeny from hybrids are also hybrids. The second link specifically says hybrids are an exemption and are excluded. So, I'm still not seeing where you are getting that their offspring could be regulated.

I'm really wondering if people even bothered to read the information in both of those links.

 

[sdsnybny]

Another way to look at it to examine what has happened in the hobby already when a species is added to these lists. Consider the CITIES Brachypelma the only controls are if the are exported/imported then the exporter has to provide the paperwork to the importer proving they are legal WC imports or offspring of wc/cb. After they are here in US past customs they don't have any controls unless you try to export them. Many of us have CITIES controlled Brachy's that do not require any paperwork or have any controls on them as long as they stay within our borders

 

[REEFSPIDER]

Yeah, cause 155 national forest contain 190 million acres of protected plants and animals has been terrible. All the regulated wild life in the US that is managed by government agencies that are thriving and coming back from where we almost killed them all off. Bald eagles being off the NC endangered list after being on there quite a long time. Terrible things for sure.....

Those tarantulas are likely to end up on the regulated list for a reason. I find it funny (and a bit telling) that people don't seem very upset about that. They seem to care only about the fact that they may not be able to as easily get this new pet when they want it.

Those fish dude listed above are a prefect example. The governments in places where they are native and CERN now allows for them to be farm grown for sale to the pet trade. Yet, I found nothing where any of those same governments are trying to save habitats or re introduce them to the wild. Why is only the big money part of selling to fish keeper thriving while nothing seems to be do to help the wild population? I was unable to find one conservation site/article on those fish. On all the posts I saw on several fish boards (people who should care about them IMO) were people complaining about not being able to get them or the price being high when they could because of the regulation. No one said a thing about the fact that if those governments continue to do nothing in several more generations, a few of the fish they want so bad would not exist in the wild. They just cared about if they could get this regulated fish for their collections.

I enjoy keeping pokies. I know that habitat loss is a big factor (though not the only one) for the decline of the species. That is not likely to change. As the above document pointed out, hobbyist are not an answer for species conservation. Mainly because we don't tract who gets mated where. So we are more likely to have hybrids than both wild species mating or an actual conservation breeding program. Regulating the import of WC endangered species is about all the US can do to try to help prevent the pokies we like so much from going extinct. They did mention helping the country with some conservation training in there as well in the above paper. I personally don't see our government trying to do what they can to prevent several species from going extinct as a bad thing.

This is going to sound racist and im emphasizing in the upmost way that it is not but asking an asian country to care about a fish whether its being pushed to extinction by over fishing for food or because it is being sold to a hobbyist for very high prices. They dont care to fix anything with the wild population. If they were extinct in the wild the asian farms could just jack there prices up more.


And if you dont believe me on this i have three words for you.


BLUE FIN TUNA.

 

[Trenor]

This is going to sound racist and im emphasizing in the upmost way that it is not but asking an asian country to care about a fish whether its being pushed to extinction by over fishing for food or because it is being sold to a hobbyist for very high prices. They dont care to fix anything with the wild population. If they were extinct in the wild the asian farms could just jack there prices up more.


And if you dont believe me on this i have three words for you.


BLUE FIN TUNA.

From what I saw on those fish boards asking fish hobbyist to care about the wild fish population of that species was a bit too much as well. I get what you're saying but no one on those boards seem to give a rats a about the wild population either. They were just pissed they couldn't get one cause they were on an endangered list. Which, at times, reminds me of other hobbies.

Lets be honest though, it's not just people of asian decent either. How about our leather back turtles? Most people have never even seen one. I have a nice endangered wood pecker in my back yard. I can show you the same thing all over the planet with just about every group of people.