Asian Arboreals + Humidity

[Edan bandoot]

I would again ask - if humidity is completely irrelevant why can’t I keep my future Singapore Blue in a sandbox? why is everyone insistent that they be kept on consistently damp substrate? following the logic of these arguments i should be able to fill an Exo Terra with sand and keep them with no issues

The easiest way to maintain humidity in a plastic box is with substrate that holds water.

The measurement of the the humidity is irrelevant due to the ease of keeping dirt wet compared to keeping air wet.

 

[corydalis]

Also we should forget that to have humid conditions damp or wet substrates are needed.

Would you say this is humid or dry?

View attachment 408163

That's paraguana GBBs habitat, 80% of humidity on average.

I’m not quite sure about how that 80% av. humidity (which is more like av. 71-74% according to this site https://www.weatherwx.com/yearly-climate/ve/paraguana+peninsula.html ) makes much difference in those rather windy conditions (av. 21-32 km/h ) knowing the wind’s drying effect.

Sometimes a simple water dish is enough to provide enough moisture to the air to keep it humid, depending on the size and ventilation of course.

.. and to provide permanent access to drink? However odd way it may sounds to keep a T hydrated.

 

[Dorifto]

The easiest way to maintain humidity in a plastic box is with substrate that holds water.

The measurement of the the humidity is irrelevant due to the ease of keeping dirt wet compared to keeping air wet.

Nobody is talking to measure humidity levels nor talking to keep the air wet. We are talking about the relevancy of humidity.

Unfortunatelly, a lot of advices can be detrimental because we (most people) are not taking into account the keepers location climate or house climatic conditions. Most give those suggestions based on their own experience, and if you are not aware of how those conditions affects your enclosure and your Tx your advice could be really bad.

If you really read my answers and opinions, you should know that I'm againts overcomplicated methods, like using nebulizers etc. A simple moist substrate is enough to give the desired humidity level, but you should be aware of your own conditions in order to give it the right amount of moisture.

I’m not quite sure about how that 80% av. humidity (which is more like av. 71-74% according to this site https://www.weatherwx.com/yearly-climate/ve/paraguana+peninsula.html ) makes much difference in those rather windy conditions (av. 21-32 km/h ) knowing the wind’s drying effect.

Good point, but I didn't want to add wind to the equation to not "overcomplicate" more the things hahahahahaha. That's one of the reasons why I never suggest to keep them at the same RH, but yes close to it.

If they were directly exposed to those winds, it's like having a bit lower RH, as this faster air will remove more moisture. But they live under bushes, where the air speed it's way lower. Same happens in hour enclosures.

I was simply pointing that even their substrate is bone dry, they have a pretty humid climate. If the average of certain places varies +-5% still doen't change that fact. Because people really believe that those are dry species, where in reality they have plenty of humid air.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Nobody is talking to measure humidity levels nor talking to keep the air wet.

that's what humidity is...........................................

measuring rh does unnecessarily overcomplicate things.

 

[jrh3]

I would again ask - if humidity is completely irrelevant why can’t I keep my future Singapore Blue in a sandbox? why is everyone insistent that they be kept on consistently damp substrate? following the logic of these arguments i should be able to fill an Exo Terra with sand and keep them with no issues

The sand wouldn’t be good for them because they like to burrow.

Most give those suggestions based on their own experience, and if you are not aware of how those conditions affects your enclosure and your Tx your advice could be really bad.

This is the same thing you are doing, as well as making an assumption on what percentage range is correct. Until there are studies done showing what percentage they will die or thrive at, yours is a wild guess just as everyone else..
You also can’t base what the percentage of humidity is in their local environment because most of them live in a moist hole or live in a tree that absorbs water.

This is why years and years of experience comes into play because it trumps it all for now. I know what works and what doesn’t work.

The only thing I change is how often I overflow the water dish from summer to winter. And the ranges in my house go from 30%-85%.

This is why moisture is important and not humidity.

 

[YungRasputin]

The sand wouldn’t be good for them because they like to burrow.

ah, the fabled fosso-arboreal

 

[Dorifto]

that's what humidity is...........................................

measuring rh does unnecessarily overcomplicate things.

Yes I always use a pencil and a paper to calculate it...

You will never see me suggesting someome to constantly measure it, neither to suggesting somebody to chase any specific RH numbers.

But knowing your values it'll be helpful to choose your husbandry. And to have an aproximate idea of it you don't need to expend a fortune, and in most cases you can have a good idea searching it on the web

The sand wouldn’t be good for them because they like to burrow.

Touché

This is the same thing you are doing, as well as making an assumption on what percentage range is correct

You misundertood that part. I said that people suggest things without taking into consideration the other's climate or conditions. Like keep it bone dry with a water dish, pretty common unfortunatelly.

I will always ask about their conditions before suggesting anything, or at least I check the location to have an aproximate idea.

You also can’t base what the percentage of humidity is in their local environment because most of them live in a moist hole or live in a tree that absorbs water.

You will never see me suggesting to keep them at any specific percentage, not at least any terrestrial ones. I always suggest to give them different spots. The only one that I know that delved into the subjet of burrows conditions is @lansky.

Trees doesn't only absorb water, mainly via roots, they also release it via mainly the leafs, but also from the their logs, search evapotranspiration of trees. So if a T lives in a tree, they have another humidity source.

This is why years and years of experience comes into play because it trumps it all for now. I know what works and what doesn’t work.

The same years of years of experience that other people have keeping them in controlled environments, one thing doesn't alter the other. Simply that some focus more on how things works rather than following it worked that way.

The only thing I change is how often I overflow the water dish from summer to winter. And the ranges in my house go from 30%-85%.

And that's a good way to increase HUMIDITY. If humidity doesn't affect at all why are you changing the frequency?

That moisture is the one preventing them from dehydrating or having molting issues, because the air is taking the moisture mainly from it rather than the T. You yourself answered why it matters, simply that with your husbandry you can ignore it because you are counteracting any dangerous levels.

This is why moisture is important and not humidity.

Both are important, and both are linked to each other. And understanding it helps a lot improving our husbandry.

 

[cold blood]

Wrong

If you have found the right spot in your husbandry, it doesn't magically convert it irrelevant, simply that in that case you can "ignore" it.

But i do and have for 2 decades...,explain my success despite completely ignoring the term humidity.

My confidence comes from decades of experience, not assumptions.

You are solely focusing that to be humid you need damp substrates, and that's not completely true. While in drier clinate like yours this is "true", in other types of climates, enclosures etc that same level of moisture could be contraproductive.

Again, you are making assumptions. Assumptions that go against all the conversations we have had on this topic. You claim my drier climate, yet for the summer my conditions are super humid, similar to Florida actually.

If it's irrelevant, why not to keep all your Ts bone dry? as @YungRasputin mentioned? Pretty good point tbh.

Because they are moisture dependent, not humidity dependent. I cannot believe you still see the humidity relevancy as akin to improper husbandry...you assume instantly (despite being told otherwise over and over again) that ignoring humidity is akin to ignoring husbandry, which couldn't be further from fact.

Your question makes no sense at all, not at all a good point...in fact an extremely narrow-minded point that requires all kinds of off the wall assumptions.

- if humidity is completely irrelevant why can’t I keep my future Singapore Blue in a sandbox?

Because they are moisture dependent, not humidity dependent.

Humidity is the measure of moisture IN THE AIR...no t can get moisture from the air, nor can they float in the air....which is precisely why humidity is not relevant to t keeping.

You are making the same ridiculous assumption that ignoring humidity means ignoring the animal's needs. Its needs are within the sub, not the air. A t like violaceopes needs substrate moisture, not air moisture. I keep several violaceopes, and breed them and raise them for much of the year in very low humidity, but its as simple as keeping the sub damp from time to time...but also dont be fooled, they can and do dry out from time to time and it doesn't instantly kill them, not even as slings.

NO ONE saying humidity is irrelevant is EVER suggesting keeping all ts dry all the time, I am amazed people jump to this ridiculous conclusion that makes absolutely ZERO sense. There isnt a connection between ignoring humidity and ignoring the animals' actual needs. Any moisture dependent's needs can easily be achieved in low humidity environments with a simple cup and water.

Why you cant keep it in a sand box should be obvious with a touch of logic...a sandbox isnt an enclosure and NO ONE uses sand. But hey if you wanted to and were diligent enough to cover the sand box and keep the sand appropriately damp, the t would not die....but who on gods green earth is suggesting keeping anything on dry sand...even care sheets no better than that.

ah, the fabled fosso-arboreal

In captivity pretty much all non avic arboeals burrow.

 

[DaveM]

This is an interesting debate. Since this is all brand-new to me, I can't wait to see what will happen. For newer members: @cold blood and @Dorifto are two most highly respected keepers, and we're in for a real treat as their respective insights are laid forth here.

I'm hedging my bets slightly in saying that the ambient humidity (in the bulk of the enclosure's airspace) generally doesn't matter, but moist substrate does matter for some species and spiderlings because of the thin layer of humidity it maintains right next to it -- all that, being in captivity, without factoring in the risks of dehydration that a spider might face in the wild.

Now let's see how this discussion progresses....

 

[Benson1990]

I think chasing humidity numbers would do more harm than good in the vast majority of cases anyway, humidity fluctuates so much in general, the climate, a person house all spike and drop on a whim, how do you chase a so called perfect number, say 60-70%, you could have it one minute and then in the next few its gone, it seems an impossible task.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Has anyone ever figured out what causes a dependence on moisture? Why would a tarantula from a tropical rainforest need wet dirt while a tarantula from an arid region seem to abhor it? Humidity slows down evaporative water loss from a tarantula's body; high humidity would lower the frequency of taking a drink from a water dish. But I've never been able to figure out why a tarantula like Grammostola rosea can tolerate high humidity, but becomes discontent on wet soil while a tarantula like Theraphosa stirmi (at any size) becomes discontent on dry soil regardless of how high the humidity is.

 

[Dorifto]

@cold blood you only want to understand what really interest you seriously... If not I can't understand how you are not capable to see it.

No one said that you husbandry is wrong, in fact you are doing things right. Simply because your husbandry methods are spot on it doesn't make humidity irrelevant, simply that you are counteracting any dryness (lack of humidity) automatically, due to your hunsbandry, enclosures or climate. It looks always you feel that I'm against your husbandry, and far from it. But you are focusing your point of view basing on your enclosures, without wanting to understand how factors like size, ventilation etc can really affect them. Not evertbody has the same setups, same climate, and even less same skills.

The one preventing them from dehydration is not the substrate moisture. Is the HUMIDITY surrounding them. Adding moisture to the substrate you are raising the amount of humidity in the air. Thing that otherwise, without that moisture, that dry air would be absorbing water from the next watered body, the T.

Adding that moisture is what you really need to counteract any dryness, because it increases the humid air around that T, preventing them from having issues. Same goes for arboreal species, they are not in contact with the moist substrate, they are in contact with the log and humid (moist) air. And if this air is not humid, their dehydration rate rises, because there is no any thin layer of moisture around them. So if your Ts are not dehydratin, is thanks to this humid air, or because of having an easy to take water source.

So if you live in a humid climate, you will need way less moisture than one that lives in a drier climate.

To understand this nobody needs a PhD, pretty simple.

Now, why a lot of people have success keeping them dry? Because they weren't.

That the substrate it's dry, it doesn't mean that your enclosure conditions are dry. A simple water dish can raise by several points humidity levels inside. So depending on you house climate and enclosure type (size, ventilation... etc) a simple water dish could achieve that optimal conditions. Not mentioning if you live in humid conditions.

And this is what you don't want or you can't understand.

Now what happens if the same keeper that have been succesfull keeping them "dry" in a relative small enclosure with enough ventilation rehouses it to a way bigger one with better ventilation, and keeps the same husbandry and water sources (lets say a water dish, no misting nor spritz). If the climate is dry (not humid < 40), that water source pretty sure that isn't going to be capable of providing enough water to achieve the same optimal conditions than before. Simply because the internal volume will be much greater than the amount of water provided to the air (via same water dish for example).

Here you can counteract that dry (less humid) air with a bigger water dish, so it has a bigger evaporation area/rate, or simply you can add moisture to the substrate, so they raises
the humidity, preventing them from having issues.

In captivity pretty much all non avic arboeals burrow

Imagine why it could happen. Should I mention it?

I think chasing humidity numbers would do more harm than good in the vast majority of cases anyway, humidity fluctuates so much in general, the climate, a person house all spike and drop on a whim, how do you chase a so called perfect number, say 60-70%, you could have it one minute and then in the next few its gone, it seems an impossible task.

And here, I'm agree with you. But simply because most people that chase specific humidity numbers ignore other factors like ventilation, dampness etc in order to achieve those numbers.

If done correctly, there is no issue achieving values close to it, having plenty (PLENTY) of ventilation and being aware on how it works.

Eg: my enclosures are between 60s on the pulchra's side and 70s on the geniculata's side. I do absolutely nothing besides giving moisture, the soil, the moss, the plants and the ventilation will do the rest for me. But in case you don't have or want such "dificult" setups, you can achieve it using the frequency that you water the enclosure. Frequency, not quantity.

Also those values are not static, I don't keep my Ts that way, because obviously in the nature they have some variations. A simple temp drop or air current is enough to change them.

But I've never been able to figure out why a tarantula like Grammostola rosea can tolerate high humidity, but becomes discontent on wet soil while a tarantula like Theraphosa stirmi (at any size) becomes discontent on dry soil regardless of how high the humidity is.

Maybe (it's a suposition) because the ones that evolved in drier climates with drier soils can tolerate humidity, but find that soil wetness like a warning sign, like seasonal flooding etc, because high humidity doesn't equal rain. But the ones that evolved in very humid climates they even need that moisture on the ground because it could mean just the opposite, a drought, or for whatever other reason, to keep booklungs less exposed... being those usually biggers.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Has anyone ever figured out what causes a dependence on moisture? Why would a tarantula from a tropical rainforest need wet dirt while a tarantula from an arid region seem to abhor it? Humidity slows down evaporative water loss from a tarantula's body; high humidity would lower the frequency of taking a drink from a water dish. But I've never been able to figure out why a tarantula like Grammostola rosea can tolerate high humidity, but becomes discontent on wet soil while a tarantula like Theraphosa stirmi (at any size) becomes discontent on dry soil regardless of how high the humidity is.

My theory is that the desert tarantulas instinctually flee from wet dirt because it's indicative of a flash flood in the desert. While tropical climates often have more regular rain fall instead of flash floods.

They almost always go up when fleeing the dirt which supports the idea.

Just a theory though.

 

[jrh3]

The one preventing them from dehydration is not the substrate moisture. Is the HUMIDITY surrounding them.

How do tarantulas absorb Humidity? Not through there exoskeleton. They could drink and stay hydrated. So what are the benefits of humidity?

 

[cold blood]

@cold blood you only want to understand what really interest you seriously... If not I can't understand how you are not capable to see it

Brother, your views are AT LEAST as rigid as mine...I have written the equivalent of a book describing things to you and you continue to ignore everything I say, even repeating the same things over and over despite several in depth explanations.....and you think I am the one who doesn't want to understand?

No one said that you husbandry is wrong,

No, it was implied...you imply it and rasputen implies it whenever you go into the "keeping everything dry" drivel you constantly spout...I NEVER SAY THAT....like EVER. Husbandry still applies, in fact the ts husbandry is all that applies. So the constant insinuation of the way I keep or tell people to keep ts is absolutely implying my husbandry is wrong. Please note, I have never once done this to you or anyone else on this topic.

. Simply because your husbandry methods are spot on it doesn't make humidity irrelevant

Yes, spot on because I keep moisture dependent species on damp sub...something anyone with a few functioning brain cells can do with relative ease.

simply that you are counteracting any dryness (lack of humidity) automatically, due to your hunsbandry, enclosures or climate

No, I am not counteracting squat, I am simply maintaining proper husbandry...I am in fact, just ignoring humidity...that's it.

But you are focusing your point of view basing on your enclosures, without wanting to understand how factors like size, ventilation etc can really affect them. Not evertbody has the same setups, same climate

As I have outlined dozens of times, my climate is both bone dry AND extremely humid. My ventilation doesnt change with the seasons like my humidity does.

and even less same skills.

I cater my information directly to those at the beginner level. I help them simplify things so they concentrate on what matters and don't focus on the things that do not matter, like humidity.

The one preventing them from dehydration is not the substrate moisture. Is the HUMIDITY surrounding them

No, its the thin layer of humidity directrly above the ground....which is important because this is where the ts book lungs are located. The air above a ts body plays NO role whatsoever.

. Adding moisture to the substrate you are raising the amount of humidity in the air.

See the above answer...its the same...its about the thin layer beneath the t, everything else is irrelevant, which is why damp sub is so effective and all that needs to be worried about.

Adding that moisture is what you really need to counteract any dryness, because it increases the humid air around that T

under the t.

. Same goes for arboreal species, they are not in contact with the moist substrate

Sure they are....aside from Avic types, arboreals all spend at least a portion, if not much of their lives on or under the ground slightly.

How many arboreals do you keep?

So if you live in a humid climate, you will need way less moisture than one that lives in a drier climate.

Correct...one's humidity will dictate how much moisture one needs to add as well as how often. It doesnt change the fact that one simply needs to watch the sub and add water when it dries out....it only changes the details of what and when water is added.

Now, why a lot of people have success keeping them dry? Because they weren't.

Here you go again, you need to stop with this......what the heck are you even talking about...no one is telling ANYONE to keep anything dry....ignoring humidity doesnt mean keeping everything dry, nor does it mean ignoring a species of ts husbandry requirements.

. A simple water dish can raise by several points humidity levels inside.

A water dish is for drinking, not for providing humidity....a water dish is not an effective way to increase humidity in the enclosure.

Not mentioning if you live in humid conditions.

And super dry...dont forget, I live in a climate of both extremes.

And this is what you don't want or you can't understand.

I have written pages explaining things to you, point by point, yet you keep bringing up the same points again and again...and you think its me that doesn't want or can't understand? That's priceless.

Now what happens if the same keeper that have been succesfull keeping them "dry" in a relative small enclosure with enough ventilation rehouses it to a way bigger one with better ventilation, and keeps the same husbandry and water sources (lets say a water dish, no misting nor spritz). If the climate is dry (not humid < 40), that water source pretty sure that isn't going to be capable of providing enough water to achieve the same optimal conditions than before. Simply because the internal volume will be much greater than the amount of water provided to the air (via same water dish for example).

Why would you assume such things...you are really reaching for a win here and I just don't get your desire to prove a point regardless of what is said or explained.

I did explain that I live in a climate with both extremes, and that I keep hundreds of species of all sizes and that I do not alter my ventilation AT ALL.

What you are constantly doing, and the above quote is a prime example, is that you continue to over-complicate the relatively simple task of keeping tarantulas....while I strive for simplifying the process...because it really is a simple process.

Imagine why it could happen. Should I mention it?

Yeah, its because that is how they live....perhaps more experience with such moisture dependent arboreal species is what you need to grasp what I am explaining.

 

[YungRasputin]

will get to a proper response here in a moment however i don’t consider creating surface level dirt funnels, a lot of which are vertical in design, as being a “burrow” of which is defined as being an underground tunnel - this is not what i’ve seen from any of my non-avic arboreals (P. irminia, S. cal, H. mac, E. olivacea, P. rufilata, etc) - which is why the term “fosso-arboreal” was a joke you know

interestingly enough my P. rufilata hasn’t even constructed a surface level dirt funnel at all and has created a web funnel in the hanging foliage just as my A. avicularia has done

Because they are moisture dependent, not humidity dependent.

Humidity is the measure of moisture IN THE AIR...no t can get moisture from the air, nor can they float in the air....which is precisely why humidity is not relevant to t keeping.

so just to be clear - the point of your argument is that because tarantulas do not obtain moisture from the air that humidity is therefore irrelevant to husbandry? because that seems, respectfully rather silly insomuch as the debate should be what are the physiological effects of humidity ranges on the specimen, both in general, and comparative between tropical + arid species

that was the focus of the study i posted earlier on the thread - it had nothing to do with whether or not tarantulas can obtain moisture from the air

You are making the same ridiculous assumption that ignoring humidity means ignoring the animal's needs.

because it is - whether that feels uncomfortable to people or not - it seems completely illogical to me that you’re saying a tropical, Caribbean species such as A. avicularia, which has evolved over time in a particular place, with a particular climate, should be kept in what would effectively be an arid environment i.e. dry substrate with the occasional overfilled water dish

simply surviving and enduring something isn’t substantive proof that said practice is ultimately correct irrespective of if this has been the “standard” within “the hobby”

Its needs are within the sub, not the air. A t like violaceopes needs substrate moisture, not air moisture. I keep several violaceopes, and breed them and raise them for much of the year in very low humidity, but its as simple as keeping the sub damp from time to time...but also dont be fooled, they can and do dry out from time to time and it doesn't instantly kill them, not even as slings.

that’s cool

NO ONE saying humidity is irrelevant is EVER suggesting keeping all ts dry all the time, I am amazed people jump to this ridiculous conclusion that makes absolutely ZERO sense.

moisture in the substrate evaporates and becomes air moisture - obviously there is a relation between the 2 - how would this not make sense?

There isnt a connection between ignoring humidity and ignoring the animals' actual needs. Any moisture dependent's needs can easily be achieved in low humidity environments with a simple cup and water.

obviously that’s exactly what it means considering according to you this whole thing is about tarantulas obtaining water from the substrate rather than the physiological impact of humidity and is therefore not consider at all in the “humidity is irrelevant” argument

Why you cant keep it in a sand box should be obvious with a touch of logic...a sandbox isnt an enclosure and NO ONE uses sand.

I use sands all the time - particularly with my scorpions but also in mixtures to prevent/stave off mold growth in enclosures that i know are going to need moist substrate and high humidity levels

But hey if you wanted to and were diligent enough to cover the sand box and keep the sand appropriately damp, the t would not die....but who on gods green earth is suggesting keeping anything on dry sand...even care sheets no better than that.

while this thread is specific to Asian arboreal T’s the idea that you should never use sand or that arachnids don’t exist in sandy environment seems a bit silly in that some obviously do and truly, soil in the wild is a composite of a lot of different things - sometimes dust and sands

the question was obviously meant to be tongue-in-cheek and a rhetorical way to draw out the logic undergirding this “humidity is irrelevant” argument

In captivity pretty much all non avic arboeals burrow.

see my previous response to this

Has anyone ever figured out what causes a dependence on moisture? Why would a tarantula from a tropical rainforest need wet dirt while a tarantula from an arid region seem to abhor it? Humidity slows down evaporative water loss from a tarantula's body; high humidity would lower the frequency of taking a drink from a water dish. But I've never been able to figure out why a tarantula like Grammostola rosea can tolerate high humidity, but becomes discontent on wet soil while a tarantula like Theraphosa stirmi (at any size) becomes discontent on dry soil regardless of how high the humidity is.

thank you! this is precisely what should be considered here - the physiological impacts of humidity

 

[cold blood]

so just to be clear - the point of your argument is that because tarantulas do not obtain moisture from the air that humidity is therefore irrelevant to husbandry? because that seems, respectfully rather silly insomuch as the debate should be what are the physiological effects of humidity ranges on the specimen, both in general, and comparative between tropical + arid species

.In part, but if you think that is my whole argument you really nitpicked through my posts and ignored a ton of other things...like a ts husbandry needs are the single most important thing.

because it is - whether that feels uncomfortable to people or not - it seems completely illogical to me that you’re saying a tropical, Caribbean species such as A. avicularia, which has evolved over time in a particular place, with a particular climate, should be kept in what would effectively be an arid environment i.e. dry substrate with the occasional overfilled water dish

But in saying that about avics, you have to completely ignore the fact that when it was common practice to keep them humid, they died ALL THE TIME, so much that a term was invented to describe the deaths...SADS....you also have to ignore the fact that since keepers changed and moved away from these humid conditions, we dont see all the random deaths of avics like we used to and now most of us recognize SADS as a fictional thing made up as a result of keeping them wrong

simply surviving and enduring something isn’t substantive proof that said practice is

So now you are assuming my ts are barely surviving and merely enduring life?

Wow, quite the reach, especially considering I dont have many or random deaths and that I am a pretty prolific breeder producing many sacs every year, raising all the little ones successfully and supplying many people with those spiderlings. Nothing about what I see in my t room appears to be ts just surviving.

I use sands all the time - particularly with my scorpions but also in mixtures to prevent stave off mold growth in enclosures that i know are going to need moist substrate and high humidity levels

Tarantulas are not scorpions, this thread is in the tarantula discussions section, so your scorpion stuff is not relevant to the conversation.

And I didnt mean no one uses sand, I meant no one really uses sand exclusively...its a fine additive....your sand box reference clearly implied a total sand substrate, did it not?

 

[l4nsky]

First of all, @YungRasputin, was you're original question answered to your satisfaction before the debate went sideways?

Man, it seems one of these contentious threads on this topic starts up every few months and seems to devolve into personal attacks and tangential topics as the hard liners argue why they're right. Honestly, I'm tired of it. I've engaged in these debates myself and written extensive posts/threads. This may be ill-advised, but let's attempt to squash this.

@cold blood, @Dorifto
You're both right and you're both wrong and I'll attempt to prove it. There's a middle path.

First of all, I have a challenge for your logic to explain @cold blood.

This is a Phormingochilus sp Akcaya (definetly a moisture dependent species) on an eggsack and the picture was taken on 10/19. Moisture in the form of liquid water was previously added to her enclosure on 10/13. Notice the substrate is about half dry (there's a noticeable color difference above the tarantula between moist soil and drier soil.

This picture was taken on 11/18 when the eggsack was pulled. From 10/13 to 11/18, the enclosure was NOT opened and no LIQUID water was added to the substrate or water bowl for 5 weeks. The only moisture that was added was humid air directly into the burrow and the RH in her burrow was kept above 75% for the 5 weeks. There was no thin layer of humidity above the soil where the tarantula was resting as there's no soil on the bottom of her burrow (She has a false bottom in the enclosure that she's burrowed down to. Humid air is passively moved into the burrow through this false bottom. Once again, no thin layer of humidity. The burrow is a homogenous RH). How would you explain this observation sir?

Next, I have a challenge for your logic @Dorifto.

Without zooming in or looking at the controllers, which enclosure would you keep a tarantula in? It wouldn't be the right one, would it? I mean look at the condensation on that lid, that tarantula has to be just swimming in it's hide, right? Now look at the controllers. The RH in the burrow for the enclosure on the right is 74.4%. The enclosure on the left, which has only the slightest hint of condensation on the lid, is registering a balmy 90.2% RH in the burrow. These numbers aren't errors. Both tarantulas burrows go all the way down to the false bottom, both probes were pulled out and calibrated, both probes are within an inch of where the tarantulas actually sit, and both enclosures have the same amount of ventilation. Now, I know why the enclosure on the right shows soo much condensation, that's not the question. Obviously the ambient enclosure RH is much higher in the right enclosure. If I didn't know the burrow conditions, I would be panicking, as I think you would be too. Likewise, I wouldn't really be concerned about the enclosure on the left if I didn't have the burrow measurements. I'd think everything was perfect, but it's very, very far from it. If I were to try and correct the enclosure RH on the right enclosure, I'd lower the burrow RH to an unacceptable range; but without the burrow sensors, I'd never know it. So my question sir, seeing these enclosure measurements and the paradoxical burrow measurements, why should anyone worry about enclosure humidity and why is enclosure RH relevant at all when most tarantulas spends all of their time in the burrow and these burrow measurements (which are the important ones) can be completely contradictory to the enclosure measurements?

 

[YungRasputin]

.In part, but if you think that is my whole argument you really nitpicked through my posts and ignored a ton of other things...like a ts husbandry needs are the single most important thing.

i did sum up the argument thusly because that’s how it was presented to me specifically - i addressed the comments/arguments involving the quotes of my posts that you used - i am not saying that you’re a bad keeper or don’t think animal welfare is important

But in saying that about avics, you have to completely ignore the fact that when it was common practice to keep them humid, they died ALL THE TIME, so much that a term was invented to describe the deaths...SADS....you also have to ignore the fact that since keepers changed and moved away from these humid conditions, we dont see all the random deaths of avics like we used to and now most of us recognize SADS as a fictional thing made up as a result of keeping them wrong

that’s not what took place - we both know that the “SADS” phenomena was at a point in arachnid keeping when people were a) creating swamp boxes and b) believed that to achieve high humidity levels one had to sacrifice ventilation

we now know that the opposite is true and that a) arboreal species like A. avicularia need ample ventilation and b) because of A, to achieve humidity ranges typical of it’s natural environment this would require more diligent and precise humidification techniques (which is something I’ve talked about in multiple threads pertaining to this subject)

i personally have found it rather easy to have ample ventilation while at the same time having a humidity range by using parts of the terrarium as tools and control mechanisms and exploiting the natural properties of substrates

eg: with my A. avicularia i used a substrate mixture heavy in cocofiber because of the ease of which it gives up moisture comparative to other substrates like top soil - combining this with consistent light misting i have achieved humidity levels typical of where’s its from - without mold, without creating a swamp box and without sacrificing ventilation aka all of the things which lead to “SADS”

which is precisely why i feel, respectfully, that this whole “humidity is irrelevant” “dry substrate” etc response to “SADS” while being perhaps understandable is ultimately incorrect and i think this is a completely fair and reasonable thing to argue on my part

So now you are assuming my ts are barely surviving and merely enduring life?

i think the conversation would be better if you didn’t internalize what i am saying and take it as I am saying this or that about you, your babies or your husbandry - i am not here to insult or belittle you - that’s explicitly *not* what i am saying

Wow, quite the reach, especially considering I dont have many or random deaths and that I am a pretty prolific breeder producing many sacs every year, raising all the little ones successfully and supplying many people with those spiderlings. Nothing about what I see in my t room appears to be ts just surviving.

that’s cool but also, i am poking holes in the fallacious argument of “well i’ve done X, Y, and Z for so many years and no one has died, therefore what I am saying is correct” - i am again, not insulting you my friend

Tarantulas are not scorpions, this thread is in the tarantula discussions section, so your scorpion stuff is not relevant to the conversation.

i’m already aware of that as indicated by the fact that i already brought up that point first lol

And I didnt mean no one uses sand, I meant no one really uses sand exclusively...its a fine additive....your sand box reference clearly implied a total sand substrate, did it not?

listen, if i misread what you said, fine, that’s one me - i thought you were suggesting that sand was bad or should never be used or some such thing

@l4nsky yes, and your comments were most informative so thank you for that - i went for a substrate mix heavy on top soil, peat, etc and mixed that with some cocofiber and sands for my C. hosei and i plan to replicate the same for the O. violaceopes

 

[cold blood]

. Humid air is passively moved into the burrow through this false bottom. Once again, no thin layer of humidity. The burrow is a homogenous RH). How would you explain this observation sir?

First, there is likely moisture left at the bottom still providing something, especially if you are using a false bottom...secondly, as I mentioned, even moisture dependent can go for periods, some for long periods in dry conditions...even something notoriously moisture dependent like a violaceopes. For example, i have 3 that are about 2.5" and 2 adullts. I was just out of town for 11 days, when I returned the enclosures were all bone dry, yet none were in peril, looked stressed or were curled or acting any differently than usual.....same for all my Theraphosa....none had any issues being dry for those (however many) days since they dried out.

In general, conditions that are a little too moist are far more prone to issues than ones kept a little too dry. When focus lies with humidity, many (most) people are prone to end up walking a finer line by keeping their ts on the side of a bit too damp.

But the idea is to keep damp sub, which produces humidity where its needed, and not to focus on keeping humidity where its useless, which is the air above the t. One walks a finer line when worrying about humidity and the only thing that ever pays the price is the t within.


But yeah, the reality is that dorifto and I are not far off on our beliefs, we just have differing conclusions, or reasonings. I believe he is trying to be way too specific, which in turn makes things seem more complicated than they are or need to be.... Neither of us believes in measuring for a specific humidity number for example, and I believe neither of us are actually keeping our ts wrong despite the differing opinions on how we offer advice.

I do get what he is saying, I just think it doesn't need to be said unless you wish to confuse people...JMO and why I so fervently argue my points....its just so easy to make mistakes, critical mistakes, when humidity is something you concern yourself with. But one's local humidity absolutely does affect the frequency and amount of water one would need to add to a specific species, but it certainly won't effect which ts you can or can't keep healthy. I prefer the eyeball method and would like to see the hygrometer completely out of the hobby...for the benefit of both keeper simplification and the ts within them.

Humidity matters, but enclosure humidity does not, it only matters with that thin layer above the sub, but it doesn't need to always be there either.

that’s not what took place - we both know that the “SADS” phenomena was at a point in arachnid keeping when people were a) creating swamp boxes and b) believed that to achieve high humidity levels one had to sacrifice ventilation

No that is pretty much what happened...lol. There are plenty of examples where ventilation wasn't the issue...but I do admit, ventilation was the other part of the solution...but fact is, with an over-ventilated enclosure (like we see so often its become the new normal), keeping things humid is darn near impossible as it just flows right out....so the ventilation craze/need for avics goes hand in hand with low humidity.

i think the conversation would be better if you didn’t internalize what i am saying and take it as I am saying this or that about you, your babies or your husbandry - i am not here to insult or belittle you -

Well it feels like that sometimes when I get implications that I am ignoring husbandry....that's what I see when y'all repeatedly bring up this "keep everything dry" argument...an argument that makes no correlation to anything ai have ever said and ignores the animal's husbandry needs.

- i am again, not insulting you my friend

Same here, its a discussion, I see no point in insulting anyone and I am not offended by a differing opinion at all and I am not interested in offending you or anyone else either.