Asian Arboreals + Humidity

[Dorifto]

How do tarantulas absorb Humidity? Not through there exoskeleton. They could drink and stay hydrated. So what are the benefits of humidity?

Again, tarantulad DO NOT absorb humidity, They ARE BEING absorbed by DRIER (less humid) air. This dry air is the one that takes moisture from them, not the other way around. That's why humid air prevent dehydtation, not because it gives them moisture, but because it TAKES LESS from them.

No, it was implied...you imply it and rasputen implies it whenever you go into the "keeping everything dry" drivel you constantly spout...I NEVER SAY THAT....like EVER. Husbandry still applies, in fact the ts husbandry is all that applies. So the constant insinuation of the way I keep or tell people to keep ts is absolutely implying my husbandry is wrong. Please note, I have never once done this to you or anyone else on this topic.

That's how you understand it, that's not my issue.

If you don't want to see how things can affect each other, it's not my issue too.

Your hudbandry is spot on, because if not we should see hundreds of dead Ts. The only thing I said and I'm saying is that you don't want to understand why it works. This doesn't means or doesn't implies nothing.

When I say dry, moist etc I'm not pointing to you, those are common advices given here without knowing keepers climatic conditions or enclosure type.

The only time I pointed.to you saying that your enclosures couldn't be dry is when you said that your house goes to single digit RH levels, that's the only time I pointed to you and to that affirmation, because if your enclosures were also dry, you should be suffering hundreds of cases of dehydrated Ts.

Here you go again, you need to stop with this......what the heck are you even talking about...no one is telling ANYONE to keep anything dry....ignoring humidity doesnt mean keeping everything dry, nor does it mean ignoring a species of ts husbandry requirements.

A water dish is for drinking, not for providing humidity....a water dish is not an effective way to increase humidity in the enclosure.

If you, and here yes I'm pointing to you, knew how all parameters like size, ventilation, climate etc interact with each other, you should know that even a simple water dish can achieve 100% RH.

And again, I was not pointing to you... A lot of people here keep substrate dry, but this doesn't necessarily means that the enclosure is dry, it could be spot on on humidity levels with a simple water dish. AND PEOPLE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THIS. That's the reason why the same advice/husbandry works for ones and not for others.

Why would you assume such things...you are really reaching for a win here and I just don't get your desire to prove a point regardless of what is said or explained.

I did explain that I live in a climate with both extremes, and that I keep hundreds of species of all sizes and that I do not alter my ventilation AT ALL.

What you are constantly doing, and the above quote is a prime example, is that you continue to over-complicate the relatively simple task of keeping tarantulas....while I strive for simplifying the process...because it really is a simple process.

Asume what, how things work? Again I was not pointing you, I was speaking generally. This was a great example how a simple change in the enclosure size etc could change parameters inside and so your husbandry.

Overcomplicate what? Understanding how simple thing works? Because it simplifies your tasks, not complicates them. If not, you have the clear example of my "overcomplicated" enclosures, keeping by itself.

Next, I have a challenge for your logic @Dorifto.

Not a challenge, a pleasure

If I'm honest with you firstly I'd say the left one, but then I'd start looking for the reason of that condensation, like a slightly cooler air currents or place etc. Or the reason in the humidity "spike" like temp drops etc

So my question sir, seeing these enclosure measurements and the paradoxical burrow measurements, why should anyone worry about enclosure humidity and why is enclosure RH relevant at all when most tarantulas spends all of their time in the burrow and these burrow measurements (which are the important ones) can be completely contradictory to the enclosure measurements?

That's the issue, I never said that other parameters like burrows conditions should be ignored in favour of humid air, simply that humidity shouldn't be called irrelevant, specially for the ones that don't live in burrows.

If you keep the whole enclosure's humity levels where they should be, you have way less chances of having issues of any king, also they behave more naturally. Not all Ts pass all the time in their burrows, not all Ts molt there (under our care).

A lot of issues like Ts closing their burrows for long periods etc are simply because enclosure's parameters are not correct, so if the enclosure's conditons are nor ideal, or at least less ideal than the ones they found in their burrows, pretty normal to find them burrowed all day (more than usual).

In general, conditions that are a little too moist are far more prone to issues than ones kept a little too dry. When focus lies with humidity, many (most) people are prone to end up walking a finer line by keeping their ts on the side of a bit too damp.

100% agree, and that's because all the missinformation around. Not everybody needs damp substrates to achieve high humidity levels

I believe he is trying to be way too specific, which in turn makes things seem more complicated than they are or need to be....

And that's where your issue is understanding my points.

I'm not trying to be specific, simply that I preffer to understand and explain the things rather than following useful (usually) advices blindly. And in the next paragraph you mention the reasons.

I do get what he is saying, I just think it doesn't need to be said unless you wish to confuse people...JMO and why I so fervently argue my points....its just so easy to make mistakes, critical mistakes, when humidity is something you concern yourself with

Understanding it, avoids those issues, not increases them, because you are aware on how your husbandry affects it, so you least likely will commit those mistakes.

But one's local humidity absolutely does affect the frequency and amount of water one would need to add to a specific species, but it certainly won't effect which ts you can or can't keep healthy. I prefer the eyeball method and would like to see the hygrometer completely out of the hobby...for the benefit of both keeper simplification and the ts within them.

And that's the reason why I'm againts the statement humidity is irrelevant. If it's irrelevant, it won't affect the frequency and the amount of moisture they would need.

That's the only real thing I dissagree with you.

I don't constantly check humidity levels, nothing like that. I keep the moisture like you, by eyeballing. But understanding how humidity works and my type of climate, it gives me a better and clearer vision about the frequency and amount of moisture I need. Thing that otherwise I would have to adquire via experience, and here if you are a new keeper and lack knowledge, you can mess up things easily without having a good base to start with.

A hygrometer helps, but if you have the knowledge to use it properly, and being aware of how everything interact with each other. If not better to ditch it.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

How do tarantulas absorb Humidity? Not through there exoskeleton. They could drink and stay hydrated. So what are the benefits of humidity?

They don't absorb it, they can't absorb moisture from the air, they do lose water through their book lungs/joints/etc. however. The humidity does slow down the rate at which the aforementioned water loss occurs though.

 

[Crazyarachnoguy]

TIMBERLAND TOPSOIL

 

[Arachnid Addicted]

This is an interesting debate. Since this is all brand-new to me, I can't wait to see what will happen. For newer members: @cold blood and @Dorifto are two most highly respected keepers, and we're in for a real treat as their respective insights are laid forth here.

I'm hedging my bets slightly in saying that the ambient humidity (in the bulk of the enclosure's airspace) generally doesn't matter, but moist substrate does matter for some species and spiderlings because of the thin layer of humidity it maintains right next to it -- all that, being in captivity, without factoring in the risks of dehydration that a spider might face in the wild.

Now let's see how this discussion progresses....

Time to get a lot of dislikes and "X buttons"

Whenever the "humidity x moist/damp/etc." theme comes up, these two (@cold blood and @Dorifto), as experiencied as they are, dispute to see who is right or wrong, and every topic on this subject end up in a battle of egos from both of them.

Imo, I don't care anymore about the "experience level" they have, lol. I think they might consider ops doubt and, no matter if thet agree or not with s/he, give the direct answer and let op decide.

At the end of the day, though, it all synonyms and shouldn't have to be so controversial.

Peace,
Arachnid Addicted.

 

[DaveM]

Time to get a lot of dislikes and "X buttons"

Whenever the "humidity x moist/damp/etc." theme comes up, these two (@cold blood and @Doriftol , as experiencied as they are, dispute to see who is right or wrong, and every topic on this subject end up in a battle of egos from both of them.

Imo, I don't care anymore about the "experience level" they have, lol. I think they might consider ops doubt and, no matter if thet agree or not with s/he, give the direct answer and let op decide.

At the end of the day, though, it all synonyms and doesnt have to be so controversial.

Peace,
Arachnid Addicted.

Yes, perhaps calling this debate brand-new was too extreme of an understatement to register as comical understatement.
But I think so highly of @cold blood and @Dorifto, that their comments always do interest me.
(I think so highly of you too, @Arachnid Addicted! -- great guy, and such fantastic/rare/beautiful new spiders you are always showing to us! Thank you!)

But with humidity, trying to maintain high humidity introduces some new challenges, especially for beginners.
Captivity is unlike the wild, where conditions are variable and swing so wildly over time. It's not possible to duplicate the natural environment in our homes, and not necessarily the case that we must try our best to do so, when our spiders appear to be thriving without any extra efforts in that direction.

we (most people) are not taking into account the keepers location climate or house climatic conditions

However, that's a great point to consider also.

I wouldn't want to suggest considering humidity to new keepers, especially for the species most recommendable to new keepers.
We need some large controlled studies of sacmates from several diverse species raised at different humidity levels -- anyone know of such a study? -- we need some good data to have a meaningful debate.

 

[Dorifto]

It's not egos, I hate the therm irrelevant hahahahaha. In my case, it's not me against @coldblood, it's me against the therm irrelevant.

It's a bit frustrating to be honest, I'm not gonna deny it. Imho everything related to humidity, from climate to enclosure sizes it's undervaluated and not properly understood.

This forum is a great, if not the best source of accesible information, and I don't see the problem in explaining why it matters or not, and simply because they are some proven standard "care sheets", I don't understand such fear to understand what makes those care sheet work or not. And humidity is part of those care sheets, even if people want to ignore it. We should be the first ones opened to new perspectives in order to improve our husbandry and the hobby.

It's like people that believe they are keeping any species dry, simply because they keep the substrate dry, and that's a very bad misconception that could lead into very bad advices, if you don't understand the reason behind why it works for you. Your climate, enclosure size, ventilation, water source etc can make the same care sheet to be spot on in one place, or to be completely detrimental in other.

It's the whole humidity (climate, enclosure, substrate) the one that affects the T, not the few milimiters. And this is very easy to understand, if we are open to do so. If only the few mm are important, we should see some arid substrate but humid climate Ts dead, like GBBs, Balfouris etc, and this doesn't happen in nature. The most common issue we see, is when those species are kept bone dry and in dry climates, same for other humid and arboreal species. None of them have any few milimiters of moist substrate in the nature, but they thrive, because their clinatic conditions are humid. But under our care, where our conditions differ a lot from their habitat, because of our climate, AC units, stoves etc, we can see a lot of issues like being more prone to have dehydration or molting issues, and that's because those conditions lack something, HUMIDITY. And this conditions can be worsened if using bigger enclosures or with way better ventilation systems. While in a small enclosure it's easily avoidable, even with a simple water dish, but in bigger ones, the difference between the water source (dish) and volume, may be too big to be solvable with the water dish alone (without moisture in the substrate)

And this it's not very hard to understand, and it could help improving our advices, as we can figure out or have a close idea about at which conditons could be kept by the new keeper.

The more and better information we have and share, the better for us. If somebody doesn't understand something, we should repeat it again or explain it in a more accesible manner until it understands it.

But with humidity, trying to maintain high humidity introduces some new challenges, especially for beginners.
Captivity is unlike the wild, where conditions are variable and swing so wildly over time. It's not possible to duplicate the natural environment in our homes, and not necessarily the case that we must try our best to do so, when our spiders appear to be thriving without any extra efforts in that direction.

It's not hard if you are aware of how it behaves with your surroundings, and it's a very easy task to achieve if wanted.

100% agree that trying to achieve exact RH numbers is a big mistake, but I'm more in favour to keep them close, with the right info of course. And I believe that most of our advices lacks that information, even if they are useful.

However, that's a great point to consider also.

That's the first thing I always try to ask. Climatic conditions and enclosure type, with those two parameters, you can have a greater vision about their possible needs.

I wouldn't want to suggest considering humidity to new keepers, especially for the species most recommendable to new keepers.
We need some large controlled studies of sacmates from several diverse species raised at different humidity levels -- anyone know of such a study? -- we need some good data to have a meaningful debate.

It's as easy as to give them the right information.

First thing we should forget is that to be humid, you need damp substrate. Depending on your climatic conditions, enclosure size, amount of ventilation etc, sometimes a water dish is enough to have pretty humid conditions. Or just the opposite, that you need greater ventilation in order to not have stagnant conditions with a simple water dish if your climate is very humid. Usually the bigger and the better ventilated the enclosure is, the greater the amount of moisture is needed compared to a small one to achieve the same levels of humidity.

Most of the people that believe they are keeping them dry, they are keeping them more humid than they think.

 

[cold blood]

It's not egos,

I couldnt agree more. None of our debates, regardless of how heated they have become, have ever devolved into name caling, and I think that there is and has always been a mutual respect involved.....we just see things very differently and really aren't all that far apart in what we argue.

it's me against the term irrelevant.

And I am all for it, as I always say, I cater my advice to beginners, and IMO the term is in fact irrelevant to beginners, in fact I believe this term causes more problems and confusion for beginners than any other aspect of t keeping, which is why I will always tell them to ignore it.

It's a bit frustrating to be honest,

100%

 

[Dorifto]

And I am all for it, as I always say, I cater my advice to beginners, and IMO the term is in fact irrelevant to beginners, in fact I believe this term causes more problems and confusion for beginners than any other aspect of t keeping, which is why I will always tell them to ignore it.

But it really causes problems because there is not a proper information about it. There are standarized care sheets that usually work fine for the majority. But understanding them, it will work for everybody, regardless their climatic conditions, enclosure size etc

I know that your intentions are good, but sometimes, a bit of "complexity" helps to improve their skills and being more resolutive.

Too much people believe that humidity doesn't affect their Ts, because of those statements. And imho it's one thing we should change and to start being more specific with it, like advising it is needed, but that nobody should chase it specifically, because it's easily achievable with simple tasms. It would be much better to suggest them easy ways to achieve it, like the one we use, EG moist the substrate, rather than saying it is irrelevant. That last word has too much weight, and could lead a lot of people in trouble, if they don't have enough skills or knowledge.

And yes, it's frustrating for both, I understand clearly your point of view, and I'm not against it, simply that we could make it better.

 

[Matt Man]

this only my personal experience, so take it as you may. I tend to run my asian arboreal dry with ventilation and water dishes. The only fatality I have ever had with an ASIAN ARBOREAL was in a humid / moist enclosure

 

[cold blood]

know that your intentions are good, but sometimes, a bit of "complexity" helps to improve their skills and being more resolutive.

I see your intentions the same, actually. But complexity is absolutely not the friend of the beginner or even the average keeper.

Too much people believe that humidity doesn't affect their Ts, because of those statements.

In general, it doesnt IME.

And imho it's one thing we should change and to start being more specific with it,

Specifics are a big part of the problem...we see such specifics in care sheets messing people up all the time....those specifics, which are in no way specific in real life, dont serve any positive purpose.

 

[Dorifto]

this only my personal experience, so take it as you may. I tend to run my asian arboreal dry with ventilation and water dishes. The only fatality I have ever had with an ASIAN ARBOREAL was in a humid / moist enclosure

All of this is very helpful if it's posted objectively. Thanks

For example, the type of enclosure, ventilation type, amount, climate etc. Do you have any pic of it?

Not always moist substrates are needed to achieve correct humidity levels, and it's something people don't properly understand.

I see your intentions the same, actually. But complexity is absolutely not the friend of the beginner or even the average keeper.

In reality it's not complex at all, it can be simplified a lot. One simply should know that at lower RH the faster our enclosures will dry, so more often water should be added or just the opposite, the bigger the RH, the slower this process is, so less moisture is needed overall. Other things are not necessary, but help, like knowing that the RH changes with temperature etc only helps to understand the why of such sudden variations, like sudden drops or spikes etc.

Imho we should focus more on suggesting easy ways to achieve it and when it's necessary. And the easiest way is: moist let it dry and moist again method, no hygromethers no tech involved. But to achieve this, people should be aware about how humidity or the lack of it affects things.

Specifics are a big part of the problem...we see such specifics in care sheets messing people up all the time....those specifics, which are in no way specific in real life, dont serve any positive purpose.

You understand it wrongly or I explained it even worse

I didn't mean specific things like X% RH at XTemp, burrows at X° angle... etc, but to suggest our advises taking into considerarion the keepers conditions, when it's neccesary, and how they can achieve those conditions easily. And this is where we usually fail imho. We (most) give our advises based on our experience, but our experience is usually limited to our own climatic conditions. Some like you and me have the bad luck or the luck to have such big differences in our conditions, so we are more aware of it's effects, but others maybe not so much.

 

[cold blood]

One simply should know that at lower RH the faster our enclosures will dry, so more often water should be added or just the opposite

Yeah, but this is utterly obvious

You understand it wrongly or I explained it even worse

I didn't mean specific things like X% RH at XTemp, burrows at X° angle

Yeah, i know you aren't implying specifics in terms of numbers...but this is what most people generally get from humidity talk...hence all the hygrometers new people buy....and all the random humidity concerns we frequently hear about.

but to suggest our advises taking into considerarion the keepers conditions, when it's neccesary,

Again, we all know our own climates and our own climates are exactly what keepers will be considering....a keeper in Florida doesn't need to know or even care what the conditions are in Las Vegas......we don't need to spoon feed every person what their climate is, they already know. The gal in Vegas knows her sub will dry faster, the guy in Florida already knows his sub will dry slower...this is info we dont need to tell people, we are all aware of the climates we live in. But the same can be done for both by just adding water when they dry out....the Vegas enclosures will dry faster, the Florida ones slower, but the concept is exactly the same.

Imho we should focus more on suggesting easy ways to achieve it and when it's necessary. And the easiest way is: moist let it dry and moist again method, no hygromethers no tech involved

yeah, this is EXACTLY what I always say and what you argue with me about...lol

 

[Dorifto]

Yeah, but this is utterly obvious

Unfortunatelly it isn't for some...

Again, we all know our own climates and our own climates are exactly what keepers will be considering....a keeper in Florida doesn't need to know or even care what the conditions are in Las Vegas......we don't need to spoon feed every person what their climate is, they already know. The gal in Vegas knows her sub will dry faster, the guy in Florida already knows his sub will dry slower...this is info we dont need to tell people, we are all aware of the climates we live in. But the same can be done for both by just adding water when they dry out....the Vegas enclosures will dry faster, the Florida ones slower, but the concept is exactly the same

Unfortunatelly, no.

It's not to spoon feed someone to explain how your climate could affect your husbandry. It would be spoon feeding if we calculate every aspect on behalf of the keeper. Then I'd be the first slaping the keeper, if not ask at tarantulas UK

Imo all of this, can be easily avoided having a proper information about humidity, dryness etc. Thing that at least for now, looks like a taboo, not mentioning heat mats hahahahaha

 

[cold blood]

Thing that at least for now, looks like a taboo, not mentioning heat mats hahahahaha

That's another ball of wax....and another HUGE misunderstanding many jump to.

Mats are suggested widely all over this site....even I have dozens and dozens of posts explaining the safest methods for using them.

 

[jrh3]

The gal in Vegas knows her sub will dry faster, the guy in Florida already knows his sub will dry slower...this is info we dont need to tell people, we are all aware of the climates we live in.

So my state would fall in the humidity of both states listed the extreme on both ends. I keep them the same with no knowledge of humidity levels. Simply add water.

This is why I think humidity number will over complicate keeping, chasing a number. When visual moist substrate works fine.

Imo all of this, can be easily avoided having a proper information about humidity, dryness etc.

What is there to know about humidity and successfully keeping a tarantula? When it can be 100% done in any climate with only the understanding of moist substrate or not.

Once you have experience keeping this is common knowledge. So mainly this will go towards new keepers, which is easier to tell them keep substrate moist vs. chasing a RH%

What can you teach an experienced keeper about humidity that will give them better success when they have already had success without it? See my point, knowing your humidity levels are irrelevant IMO.

 

[Arachnid Addicted]

Yeah, you guys can debate a lot, but you will always disagree with each other and yet, you will try to prove yourselves right.

Fun fact: when someone drops the "ego card" is when everyone agree that is not and ego thing.

Anyways, this debates are pointless, for future references, @cold blood should make his piece and @Dorifto make his also.

You guys can say whatever you want but, at the end of the day, it will be the battle of egos, indeed.

Sorry to be so sincere.

Peace,
Arachnid Addicted.

PS. Humidity/moist/damp aren't irrelevant.

 

[Liquifin]

We're hobbyists at the end of the day and not arachnologists, so there goes that... To each their own on their take on humidity and I'll be on the side with my food obseriving . I do find other hobbyists perspectives to be interesting at times. Just like how breeders debate on their ethics.

 

[DaveM]

Yeah, you guys can debate a lot, but you will always disagree with each other and yet, you will try to prove yourselves right.

Fun fact: when someone drops the "ego card" is when everyone agree that is not and ego thing.

Anyways, this debates are pointless, for future references, @cold blood should make his piece and @Dorifto make his also.

You guys can say whatever you want but, at the end of the day, it will be the battle of egos, indeed.

Sorry to be so sincere.

Peace,
Arachnid Addicted.

PS. Humidity/moist/damp aren't irrelevant.

Respect and well wishes, my peace-loving friend, but let me ask you this: would you rather be reading a thread that says: 'Add more substrate' 'More substrate for sure' 'Did you research before buying?' 'Stop watching YouTube' and 'maybe just add some more substrate'???

or...

GODZILLA versus KING KONG?

P.S. Astronauts wearing spacesuits don't worry about dessication in the vacuum of space, as long as they can get hydrated before taking a space walk. Tarantula exoskeletons are mostly like spacesuits in that they are mostly moisture impermeable, and good care in captivity will ensure that our spiders can get hydrated at will.

 

[Dorifto]

@cold blood I suggest to ban @Arachnid Addicted, we agree right?

P.S. Astronauts wearing spacesuits don't worry about dessication in the vacuum of space, as long as they can get hydrated before taking a space walk. Tarantula exoskeletons are mostly like spacesuits in that they are mostly moisture impermeable, and good care in captivity will ensure that our spiders can get hydrated at will.

But astronauts are fully sealed, tarantulas not, they have leaks. Astronauts do not unwear their space suits in a hostile envieonment, tarantulas are forced to do it.

If they were fully sealed, we shouldn't see dehydtation cases. This happens because they have leaks, ones more than others. And the only way to prevent those leaks, is equalizing the external conditions with the internal ones (moist+moist(humid)). This way their space suits won't leak as much.

We see tarantulas stuck in their spacesuits because in the space (dry air (not humid)) the water evaporates more quickly, so the lubricatin layer in between their spacesuits disappears.

Hope that with astronauts is easier to understand

 

[Wolfram1]

I have been following a lot of these discussions on the sidelines and i wish i could add anything meaningful to them. Its rare to see our mod this riled up though xd.

Personally, I just dont see how measuring the rH makes any difference to my husbandry when i can clearly judge when to add water based on my substrate.

I tend to agree with all the points of what humidity does for the spiders but at the same time fluctuations in temperature and humidity are a good thing while moisture in the substrate and ventilation is the part that really matters to me and i have a different system for that than most...


Anyway,
at least you seem to be in a good mood @Dorifto, has there been a thunderstorm by any chance