Asian Arboreals + Humidity

[AphonopelmaTX]

So you are saying humidity is critical because its just too difficult to deal with a water dish? lol

Its not btw.

I'm not speaking for Dorifto, but I understand what he is getting at. If you keep moisture levels high, whether it is in the air or in the soil, then you don't really have to fuss with a water dish when tarantulas decide they hate having standing water near them and kick it over (or whatever they do to their water). Basically the same technique for caring for small spiderlings, regardless of species, where the soil is kept damp so they don't dehydrate quickly. Only with adult tarantulas that do not have a dependence on damp soil you add water to half of the enclosure (the half where their hide/ burrow is located is best) instead of the whole thing. That way they can mess with their water without you, the keeper, worrying that they are going to quickly dehydrate. With higher humidity, the water dish is more of a "nice-to-have" or a fail-safe against dehydration than a necessity.

This is something that contradicts the usual advice shared here where it is said that tarantulas from dry habitats need dry substrate and/ or high levels of ventilation (I still don't understand the obsession with cross ventilation specifically) which could imply that water, whether in the air or in the soil, is bad for them when it really isn't. That doesn't mean one should keep their GBB, Rose Hair, or whatever like a Theraphosa stirmi, it just means that tarantulas from seasonal climates can tolerate a wide range of moisture levels in their enclosures allowing a keeper to use different techniques to make sure their tarantulas don't get sick and die of dehydration.

 

[Dorifto]

@AphonopelmaTX thanks!

You couldn't explain it better.

 

[Wolfram1]

I'm not speaking for Dorifto, but I understand what he is getting at. If you keep moisture levels high, whether it is in the air or in the soil, then you don't really have to fuss with a water dish when tarantulas decide they hate having standing water near them and kick it over (or whatever they do to their water). Basically the same technique for caring for small spiderlings, regardless of species, where the soil is kept damp so they don't dehydrate quickly. Only with adult tarantulas that do not have a dependence on damp soil you add water to half of the enclosure (the half where their hide/ burrow is located is best) instead of the whole thing. That way they can mess with their water without you, the keeper, worrying that they are going to quickly dehydrate. With higher humidity, the water dish is more of a "nice-to-have" or a fail-safe against dehydration than a necessity.

This is something that contradicts the usual advice shared here where it is said that tarantulas from dry habitats need dry substrate and/ or high levels of ventilation (I still don't understand the obsession with cross ventilation specifically) which could imply that water, whether in the air or in the soil, is bad for them when it really isn't. That doesn't mean one should keep their GBB, Rose Hair, or whatever like a Theraphosa stirmi, it just means that tarantulas from seasonal climates can tolerate a wide range of moisture levels in their enclosures allowing a keeper to use different techniques to make sure their tarantulas don't get sick and die of dehydration.

That is exactly how i see it too, but it can be done without checking humidity levels.

Which is probably the reason for the whole debate, 2 methods one outcome....

 

[Dorifto]

That is exactly how i see it too, but it can be done without checking humidity levels.

Correct.

No one ever said to check humidity levels, but some automatically understand to keeping them under favorable humid conditions means to be constantly measuring them

If one know their own climatic conditions, the better, it won't harm you. Simply that you will have less chances of having issues due to husbandry mistakes, eg keeping them too humid in humid climates or too dry in drier ones. The more useful information you have the better.

Same if you measure the enclosures, it'll give you an aprox idea of their conditions. It's necessary? NO, absolutely NO. Helps? Yes, a lot.

The problem here is that humidity looks like a taboo, and instead of understanding it, it is hidden beneath pretexts like it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, the few mm are the important ones, moist substrate is all they need etc. And even in most cases they help, they are technically incorrect.

You can have an humid enclosure without a single drop of moisture in the substrate (so there is no few mm), always that there is a big enough water source to provide the air the needed moisture to reach humid conditions, and even without that thin moisture layer, the T won't dehydrate so fast, and this is the reason behind why people believe that some species can be kept dry, specially avics case, while in reality there is enough humidity in their enclosures to prevent issues. Keep in mind that their enclosures are vertical, and humid air goes up, so they need smaller moisture surface area in order to reach the same humidity levels than in a wider terrestrial enclosure. Or like having a dry (air) enclosure having moisture in the substrate. If the dry air volume is higher than the amount of moisture coming from the moisture source to create humid conditions, the enclosure will behave like a dry enclosure. Not mentioning if you add bigger air speeds.

Understanding it helps you to achieve whatever enclosure you want, in whatever climatic conditions.

It's a simple rule of 3

 

[cold blood]

I'm not speaking for Dorifto, but I understand what he is getting at. If you keep moisture levels high, whether it is in the air or in the soil, then you don't really have to fuss with a water dish when tarantulas decide they hate having standing water near them and kick it over (or whatever they do to their water). Basically the same technique for caring for small spiderlings, regardless of species, where the soil is kept damp so they don't dehydrate quickly. Only with adult tarantulas that do not have a dependence on damp soil you add water to half of the enclosure (the half where their hide/ burrow is located is best) instead of the whole thing. That way they can mess with their water without you, the keeper, worrying that they are going to quickly dehydrate. With higher humidity, the water dish is more of a "nice-to-have" or a fail-safe against dehydration than a necessity.

This is something that contradicts the usual advice shared here where it is said that tarantulas from dry habitats need dry substrate and/ or high levels of ventilation (I still don't understand the obsession with cross ventilation specifically) which could imply that water, whether in the air or in the soil, is bad for them when it really isn't. That doesn't mean one should keep their GBB, Rose Hair, or whatever like a Theraphosa stirmi, it just means that tarantulas from seasonal climates can tolerate a wide range of moisture levels in their enclosures allowing a keeper to use different techniques to make sure their tarantulas don't get sick and die of dehydration.

Yeah, i know what he is getting at, I simply think that route isn't the route that is best suited for a beginner, keeping a water dish and damp sub is far simpler and just as effective.

And yeah, I don't get all the cross-ventilation hype....I see that as people assuming all ts are like avics, which is really nonsense.

 

[Dorifto]

Yeah, i know what he is getting at, I simply think that route isn't the route that is best suited for a beginner, keeping a water dish and damp sub is far simpler and just as effective.

Even if you feel it that way, you should call the things by it's name.

Telling people humidity is irrelevant, the only thing you could achieve is to make them believe that humidity doesn't affect them at all, and that's far from being true.

Telling them that humidity is irrelevant simply to make beginners ignore it, because you find it hard to understand? That's far far worse than giving them the right information and letting them choose whatever husbandry they preffer or better understand. We can't or we shouldn't choose the level of information that any keeper is capable to process.

Humidity is relevant, simply because with the right husbandry one could ignore their values, it doesn't convert it in irrevelant. Those are two completely different things.

There is too much people suggesting to keep some species bone dry without being aware how such advices can affect others keepers because of therms like irrelevant.

So we, like honest keepers, we should stop from spreading false claims, even if we feel that they were for a good cause.

 

[cold blood]

Telling people humidity is irrelevant, the only thing you could achieve is to make them believe that humidity doesn't affect them at all, and that's far from being true.

its completely true...fact is....anyone who lives in any climate can successfully keep any species of t, regardless of its husbandry needs.

Telling them that humidity is irrelevant simply to make beginners ignore it

Ignoring the term will make most new keepers instantly more confident (or less worried) and will also make them a more successful keeper.

because you find it hard to understand?

I never once said or even implied that I didn't understand humidity.

We can't or we shouldn't choose the level of information that any keeper is capable to process.

No, we should offer the best, most concise, simplest info that we can to help them become better keepers with fewer pitfalls. I help here on AB because I want beginners to learn from my mistakes without having to endure them for themselves.

Humidity is relevant, simply because with the right husbandry one could ignore their values, it doesn't convert it in irrevelant.

yes it does....as you said right there, its all about proper husbandry.

There is too much people suggesting to keep some species bone dry without being aware how such advices can affect others keepers

There you go again with this "keep everything dry" fantasy. I can't believe you keep going back to this well.

IGNORING HUMIDITY DOES NOT MEAN KEEPING EVERYTHING DRY ALL THE TIME.....nor does it suggest or imply ignoring husbandry. Not even close...its about a focus on sub dampness instead of air dampness...period.

, we should stop from spreading false claims, even if we feel that they were for a good cause.

There you go, false claims...you are equating your opinion to the truth.

Ignoring humidity does not make me someone who doesn't believe humidity exists, I am spreading no lies or false claims, I am offering a differing opinion on a subject than you. Never once have I told you to stop spreading lies or to stop saying something because i disagree with your approach, yet you say these things to me all the time. Dude, its OK to have a differing opinion about something, a differing opinion is not "spreading lies".

 

[DaveM]

Perhaps we should think about context and perspective on this issue.
@Dorifto is an exceptionally talented person -- he drifts souped-up Japanese cars; just ask about his username! and look at photos of his spectacularly engineered DIY bioactive enclosures, beautiful! -- SO, when he says something is easy, that doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.
Keeping enclosures moist in an effort to raise humidity can introduce new challenges (for most people), like mold or mite infestations, often requiring higher maintenance (again, maybe not so with Dorifto's level of ventilation engineering).

Newcomers here often worry too much about the wrong things, ignoring obvious deathtraps, neglecting the simple basics.
@cold blood gives them the simple answers they need. In time they might explore the nuances of keeping more difficult species. Not right at all to say he's "spreading false claims."
And any species can be kept successfully without worrying about the ambient humidity.

There may be cultural differences too. Dorifto has a great European sense of style and sophistication -- "He who moists" LOL! And we can't say he's wrong -- but many stateside, in contrast, would think it best for new keepers to follow the "KISS" principle, which stands for Keep It Simple [and no need to tell them what the last letter stands for!].

 

[Dorifto]

Seriously continue saying whatever you want, but you can say something is irrelevant and just after that say that obviously that if affects the frequency of adding moisture, that's being incongruous.

And yes, those statemens make people believe that Ts are not affected by humidity. And that's completely false.

No one is saying here to be constantly checking any values, in fact I always suggest the same methods that you use, same ones, simply that I'm honest and call things by it's name. I don't tell people that something is irrevelant in order to be ignored, that does not make any favour to the hobby, as it only confuses them more and helps spreading false facts, like some tropical species can be kept in bone dry conditions.

@Dorifto is an exceptionally talented person -- he's drifts souped-up Japanese cars; just ask about his username! and look at photos of his spectacularly engineered DIY bioactive enclosures, beautiful!

Much appreciated @DaveM!!!

SO, when he says something is easy, that doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.

In fact, it's more easy than people think. If you explain it like schultz, then yes, even for me it was chaotic even if I appreciate all the dedication to explain it scientifically.

It can be simplified vastly, somewhere in another post I explained it briefly.

Keeping enclosures moist in an effort to raise humidity can introduce new challenges (for most people), like mold or mite infestations, often requiring higher maintenance (again, maybe not so with Dorifto's level of ventilation engineering).

Agree but dissagree. All the issues are caused by having wrong perspective about what's humid or not. So if we continue ignoring it, it will continue happening. Spreading correct information about it, like even a dry (soil) enclosure can be an humid enclosure, it's vital to prevent this from happening.

Newcomers here often worry too much about the wrong things, ignoring obvious deathtraps, neglecting the simple basics.

Correct, and to solve that, true and easy to understand information is needed. Ignoring the main factor that could cause problems (both ends) only creates more problems.

Not right at all to say he's "spreading false claims."

Sorry, but until he still continues saying that humidity is irrelevant, or that only the few mm above substrate is what really matter, even if it sounds hard, it's what really is. And I don't say this in any negative manner. I didn't invented phsysics, their effects are the same for me, for you or wathever body in this word, it does not make distinctions. Even if I support CB's perspective of sharing simple to understand and valuable lessons, one should offer all the information, not to hide information, this doesn't help, creates more confusion.

And any species can be kept successfully without worrying about the ambient humidity.

If the conditions in the enclosure are ideal, absolutely.

The issue starts when people starts to believe that they can be kept dry, and this is caused because people (not pointing CB) share incorrect information or beliefs, and new keepers believe them...

With the right information, those issues wouldn't happen, or not so often, and in case a new keeper makes a mistake, a more experienced keeper could easily explain the reason of that mistake. But if we ignore the reasons behind those issues, how we should expect to not to have more?

but many stateside, in contrast, would think it best for new keepers to follow the "KISS" principle, which stands for Keep It Simple [and no need to tell them what the last letter stands for!].

St*p1d?

1000% Agree

And even humid enclosures can be achieved pretty easily and in a simple manner. But we should share the right methods to achieve it, not to ignore it. Good information helps.

It's necessary a enclosure like mine to achieve it? Absolutely no, please. As stated before, a simple water dish can achieve those conditions in certain circunatances. So if we share the right information and make people understant it properly, a lot of issues would be avoided, from dehydration to suffocations.

Again, I will not get tired of saying it, I 1000% support CB perspective of providing simple and easy to understand information, simply that I dissagree with the therm irrelevant, because it's not. Same as any other thing in this hobby, humidity can be easily explained.

 

[cold blood]

he's drifts souped-up Japanese cars.

perfect.

We are both teaching someone how to operate a manual gearbox in a car.

He is teaching the new drivers how the internal clutch operation works, and I am telling them that it doesnt matter if you know how it works or not because you can just focus on clutch modulation and throttle input and you can drive a manual for the rest of your life.... without ever understanding how the clutch operates.

 

[Dorifto]

perfect.

We are both teaching someone how to operate a manual gearbox in a car.

He is teaching the new drivers how the internal clutch operation works, and I am telling them that it doesnt matter if you know how it works or not because you can just focus on clutch modulation and throttle input and you can drive a manual for the rest of your life.... without ever understanding how the clutch operates.

Try to engage a gear if the clutch is failing

 

[DaveM]

perfect.

We are both teaching someone how to operate a manual gearbox in a car.

He is teaching the new drivers how the internal clutch operation works, and I am telling them that it doesnt matter if you know how it works or not because you can just focus on clutch modulation and throttle input and you can drive a manual for the rest of your life.... without ever understanding how the clutch operates.

Great analogy. I keep thinking that there must be some kind of good old-fashioned country wisdom that applies to this debate, like: No use beating a dead horse.

People have great success without worrying about humidity, so: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Leave well enough alone. No need to build a better mousetrap.

That all seems to be the pragmatic stance, what's most likely to help newcomers here, and what's best to tell them -- just my little monkey-brained opinion. @cold blood

At the same time, I'm a great admirer of @Dorifto. I'm interested in any solid evidence of something that could improve the lives of our spiders, if it exists. Those looking to breed will need to factor in additional considerations.
It must be a good thing to debate issues like this on Arachnoboards, and for those that aren't newcomers, we may enjoy speculating and exploring the theoretical, striving to be technically correct and optimized, sophisticated and erudite.
Well done, @Dorifto! ...but are we done?

 

[Dorifto]

Well done, @Dorifto! ...but are we done?

To be continued...


Humidity will return

People have great success without worrying about humidity, so: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Leave well enough alone. No need to build a better mousetrap.

And no one wants to change something that works, simply that if that mousetrap has a screw that fails (unscrews) from time to time, we are trying to improve it by adding a better screw with a locking nut at the end.

It's going to be the same mousetrap, simply that it won't fail or not so often. And it still will work exactly the same.

 

[Matt Man]

All of this is very helpful if it's posted objectively. Thanks

For example, the type of enclosure, ventilation type, amount, climate etc. Do you have any pic of it?

Not always moist substrates are needed to achieve correct humidity levels, and it's something people don't properly understand.

In reality it's not complex at all, it can be simplified a lot. One simply should know that at lower RH the faster our enclosures will dry, so more often water should be added or just the opposite, the bigger the RH, the slower this process is, so less moisture is needed overall. Other things are not necessary, but help, like knowing that the RH changes with temperature etc only helps to understand the why of such sudden variations, like sudden drops or spikes etc.

Imho we should focus more on suggesting easy ways to achieve it and when it's necessary. And the easiest way is: moist let it dry and moist again method, no hygromethers no tech involved. But to achieve this, people should be aware about how humidity or the lack of it affects things.

You understand it wrongly or I explained it even worse

no pix but it was an 12x12x18 exoterra with a custom lid. Great ventilation. but I was running semi bio-active. (live plants), Soil was always slightly damp and burrow at base of hide was moderately moist. Lost a pokie.

 

[Dorifto]

no pix but it was an 12x12x18 exoterra with a custom lid. Great ventilation. but I was running semi bio-active. (live plants), Soil was always slightly damp and burrow at base of hide was moderately moist. Lost a pokie.

Thanks!!

A image would have helped a lot. without it I can figure the real reason, but your answer It makes me feel that it was too much moisture compared to ventilation.

Exos have a very good ventilation, but depending on the custom lid it decreases a lot. With vertical enclosures you need way less moisture in the substrate to achieve a humid enclosure, as the humid air's nature is to go up, rather than spread. Also some plants release more moisture than others

Your house climatic conditions? Dry or humid?

 

[Edan bandoot]

I couldnt agree more. None of our debates, regardless of how heated they have become, have ever devolved into name caling,

maybe they should

 

[Matt Man]

Thanks!!
A image would have helped a lot. without it I can figure the real reason, but your answer It makes me feel that it was too much moisture compared to ventilation.
Exos have a very good ventilation, but depending on the custom lid it decreases a lot. With vertical enclosures you need way less moisture in the substrate to achieve a humid enclosure, as the humid air's nature is to go up, rather than spread. Also some plants release more moisture than others
Your house climatic conditions? Dry or humid?

My custom lids have tons of ventilation. Similar to these but for Exos. So it was well vented but still too moist. Moist enough where it never remotely approached 'drying out" My home is relatively dry, our average humidity is mid 60s dropping down into the teens or single digits during Santa Ana conditions. Right now or Min is 44%, Max of 78%, by Friday it will be 18% and 25%. So we deal with more arid than damp, I haven't lost a spider yet from it being 'too dry'.

 

[Dorifto]

My custom lid has tons of ventilation. Similar to these but for Exos. So it was well vented but still too moist. Moist enough where it never remotely approached 'drying out" My home is relatively dry, our average humidity is mid 60s dropping down into the teens or single digits during Santa Ana conditions. Right now or Min is 44%, Max of 78%, by Friday it will be 18% and 25%. So we deal with more arid than damp, I haven't lost a spider yet from it being 'too dry'.

Measure inside's conditions, external ones can give you and aprox idea, but sometimes may differ a lot. Right now I have 85% RH outside at 2°C/35.5°F but inside is 22% at 23°C/73'4°F, obviously is winter . But just the opposite in summer, sometimes 40s outside but 70s inside... That's why I always ask in house values.

That lid looks awesome tbh! If even with that lid the substrate wasn't capable of drying, there is two options, or there was too much moisture, or thar the ventilation still wasn't enough.

 

[eresiano]

was doing research and thought i would ask my pals here - for those that keep them, what’s your recipes for substrate? how do you achieve the correct humidity parameters? wanted to know if i should alter the mix I’ve been using for pokies which is 1 part cocofiber, 1 part sand, 1 part top soil and for humidity I’ve been following my usual routine of 1-2 times a day light misting, with the occasional heavy misting but overall finding a careful balance to produce 60-70%+

would Asian arboreals deviate from this substantially or be similar? have seen that there husbandry in this respect is v precise

I have a few pokies and I keep them on purely coco fiber and a bit of dried sphagnum moss for their dirt curtains. I don't mist their enclosures but I do pour water just to soak about half the substrate. It depends really your location, since I live in a fairly humid place so its fine for me to not really bother with misting to increase humidity levels but if you live somewhere with low humidity you might want soak the substrate more often then let that water evaporate.

Bottom line, depends on where you live really.

 

[Matt Man]

Measure inside's conditions, external ones can give you and aprox idea, but sometimes may differ a lot. Right now I have 85% RH outside at 2°C/35.5°F but inside is 22% at 23°C/73'4°F, obviously is winter . But just the opposite in summer, sometimes 40s outside but 70s inside... That's why I always ask in house values.

That lid looks awesome tbh! If even with that lid the substrate wasn't capable of drying, there is two options, or there was too much moisture, or thar the ventilation still wasn't enough.

thanks, I fab them myself. It was a too much moisture even without adding any water I couldn't get the soil to dry, it was the set up. FTR in one of my Python enclosures it is a daily battle to keep the humidity over 50%. It isn't bioactive though.