Are true P. subfuscas (highlands) rare in the market these days?

Angel Minkov

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Angel, what is your thoughts on forms. Does it even make sense to try to distinguish the different forms, or should be just calling the P.subfusca in the markets since the genealogy is so diluted?
Don't try to distinguish them by pictures, or even by looking at them in first person. The hobby stock is mixed up, very few people have true subfusca HL and LL. Coloration is a very bad way of going about IDs, so scratch that. From what I understood, you have several siblings or related spiders? Just breed them with each other. You should ask the person you bought them from for information regarding the lineage ^^
 

DeTwan

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I really think that my AF of 7 year is pretty damn pure, especially after reading the link in my previous post. One noticeable attribute is that HL have very large chelicerae and overall carapace. just study the link. There is a definitive difference between the two...
 

DeTwan

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And honestly I think the US market might be 'purer' for the HL form thanks mostly to Jacobi and friends. I really never heard of P.bara until 2008-09 and it was Euro sales.
 

mistertim

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A P. subfusca HL is one that I really really want but as others have said, it's borderline impossible to know if you're actually getting that (or at least a "pure" one). I love the dark coloration.
 

DeTwan

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I guess no one wants to talk P.subfusca...I get it, been beat to death.
Actually I just need this post to be come an active member, which I should be already sm(damn)h...
 

Andrea82

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Are there other markers for HL? Different looking reproductive organs maybe?
From what I've read, no definite conclusions can be made about species except when doing taxonomic observation of a deceased specimen.
 

DeTwan

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Well you dont need a deceased specimen to taxonomically see the difference. The markings are pretty consistent between the two forms, but the widths of the marking on the folium, and darkness/goldness carapace seem to differ. Also leg length and bulkiness differs between the two forms. It also looks like the LL form may have 'red'er" hairs that are all fuzzy looking (whats the correct lexicon?) around their body. The "ivory" color is 'white'er' in the HL form, and the Bengal vertical striping may take longer to turn completely black vs. the LL form.

But most importantly (at least in my mind) is resting posture, and the difference in chelicerae and overall carapace between the two.
The chelicerae and overall carapace look much bulkier on the HL form as do the legs. Yet it grows at a much slower pace than the LL in comparative size verse time.

Have you looked at this link @Andrea82 http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/subfusca/interesting/
You will see what I mean
 
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Andrea82

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Thank you for the link, I will read it later!
I must say though, I have no knowledge except for basics when it comes to pokies. I never considered one until I saw your female so I didn't research them at all like I did other species. I have some catching up to do;)
 

Angel Minkov

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Julian's photos are great, but how is he even certain those are pure specimens? "Bulkiness", "carapace and chelicerae size" and "white'er" color do not apply to taxonomy, it doesn't work like that. Its like looking at a P. regalis and P. fasciata dorsally and trying to ID them properly, it just won't work. You can never be certain you're making the correct ID, that's why its best to just trust the seller and go from there... The chances of having a pure specimen are close to 0 anyways, just try to mate HL with HL and LL with LL. Also, the "subfusca" epithet belongs to the lowland "form" or "bara", as it were, according to Ranil Nanayakkara :)
 

DeTwan

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Im not trying to reclassify the spider, just make observant differences between the two. Taxonomically correct or not, there are differences that ppl looking to breed this species should look for, for identifying the difference between the two. I doubt that whomever did all the work to get these beauties in my pasted link, didnt just assume that this is this for LL and that is that for HL , there was major insight and planning done before anyone brought a camera over including imaging the best spider candidates for representing the species . Further more I see tons of similarities to my AF HL and the one pictured in Julian's photos. I believe they are the same species (subfusca & bara). I get that there is not much you can do in controlling others behaviors and motives, but I think that there needs to be a more concise definition of the two forms. That is all I am merely questioning, studying, and seeing how to distinguish between the two forms. To merely be passive and nonchalant about the dilution of the two forms is rather sad, but perhaps more of a realist approach.
 
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Angel Minkov

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There is no real way to distinguish them based on color... period. Julian most likely bought them from a big Poecilotheria fellow here, who has pure subfusca HL and LL, from WC parents, who were IDed by him or a taxonomist. He probably has a guarantee, while you do not.
 

DeTwan

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I understand that color is not an indicator, but the two forms look to have different attributes in 'contrast' visualization. For example, the starburst pattern on the HL form has greater definition/contrast compared to the LL form. This is because the carapace surrounding the HL form is 'darker' compared to the LL, which carapace is more gold. Most of the indicators that I mentioned more or less talked about posture and overall body structure differences.

Guarantee schmerintee, there are no guarantees in life. lol

Im not looking for a guarantee about my spiders, they are what they are. Im just trying to learn. I believe that my AF that is 7 years old, looks to have very similar attributes to Julian's HL form in his photos.
 
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