Are Honduran Curly Hairs Crossbred?

[Genix]

I've read somewhere in this forum or from other sites that honduran curly hairs are most likely a crossbred species of nicaraguan curly hair. Some say that they are completely different species. Any thoughts about these? Also, can you pair a honduran with a nicaraguan curly hair?

Ps. No intention breeding those. Just curious. Coz if that's possible then it's going to make a lot of confusion.

 

[viper69]

I've read somewhere in this forum or from other sites that honduran curly hairs are most likely a crossbred species of nicaraguan curly hair. Some say that they are completely different species. Any thoughts about these? Also, can you pair a honduran with a nicaraguan curly hair?

Ps. No intention breeding those. Just curious. Coz if that's possible then it's going to make a lot of confusion.

Different localities- think Chinese vs Chilean Homo sapiens

making “hybrids” is not smart. It’s important to maintain pure blood lines of captive animals!

besides, science may use dna and learn they are different species or subsoecies

You can tell the difference just by looking at them so far

 

[Genix]

Different localities- think Chinese vs Chilean Homo sapiens

making “hybrids” is not smart. It’s important to maintain pure blood lines of captive animals!

besides, science may use dna and learn they are different species or subsoecies

You can tell the difference just by looking at them so far

I am really confused by looking at those. Unless it's really big. Whenever someone posted of a picture, there are a lot of different opinions saying that it's a honduran when it really looks like a nicaraguan hahaha. Also I really hate those who make hybrids. So irresponsible.

 

[MrGhostMantis]

I am really confused by looking at those. Unless it's really big. Whenever someone posted of a picture, there are a lot of different opinions saying that it's a honduran when it really looks like a nicaraguan hahaha. Also I really hate those who make hybrids. So irresponsible.

Another hybrid maker hater, yipee!

 

[cold blood]

Hondurans and Nicaraguans are different. Hondurans have been in the hobby forever, and over time, many have been hybridized with vagans.....which is why you see many hondurans that just dont have the curly fluff one would expect. Nicaraguans were recently flooded into the hobby, these are not only pure, but hit the hobby at a time when we are more conscious of the negative aspects of hybridization.

My big worry for the nicaraguans is hybridization with hondurans, which would potentially destroy both in the hobby.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Hondurans and Nicaraguans are different. Hondurans have been in the hobby forever, and over time, many have been hybridized with vagans.....which is why you see many hondurans that just dont have the curly fluff one would expect. Nicaraguans were recently flooded into the hobby, these are not only pure, but hit the hobby at a time when we are more conscious of the negative aspects of hybridization.

My big worry for the nicaraguans is hybridization with hondurans, which would potentially destroy both in the hobby.

I'm not entirely convinced that the difference in appearance is the result of hybridization, if you look at photos of wild albopilosum from Honduras and northward vs. those from Nicaragua and southward it looks like adults more or less have the same differences seen in the hobby:

Honduras:

Observations

Observations of Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula

www.inaturalist.org

Nicaragua:

Observations

Observations of Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula

www.inaturalist.org

Notice as well that from the map, the Honduran and Nicaraguan populations seem to be fairly disjunct (the Nicaraguan ones are mostly in the south of the country, the Honduran ones appear to be restricted to the northern part of Honduras with none in between), so it seems likely that they're just two distinct naturally occuring populations.

That isn't to say hybridization with vagans hasn't happened, but is there actually any evidence that all "hobby form" albopilosum are hybrids except conjecture people have used to explain why they look different from the recent Nicaraguan imports? Are there old photos of the ancestors of today's hobby albopilosum or other evidence showing that they used to look different?

 

[cold blood]

so it seems likely that they're just two distinct naturally occuring populations.

yeah, that was my first sentence.

, but is there actually any evidence that all "hobby form" albopilosum are hybrids except conjecture

there are decades of evidence of hybridization, people showed off the process. These produced huge numbers, almost always sold as albos....which in turn, matured and were bred.....hybridize once and it effects every sibling thereafter.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

I didn't deny that hybridization has occured, I merely question if it's universal and if there's evidence that it's a significant factor in the differences in appearance between the two forms. Even if every single honduran in the hobby carried vagans DNA from those hybridization events, I'd still be skeptical that their less hairy appearance compared to Nicaraguans is the result of hybridization when there are wild individausl from Honduras that look like these ones:

Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula (Tliltocatl albopilosus)

Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula in June 2013 by Pablo Bedrossian

www.inaturalist.org

Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula (Tliltocatl albopilosus)

Honduran Curlyhair Tarantula in May 2020 by carlos Cisneros

www.inaturalist.org

A possible comparison is that most american bison have hybrid ancestry with domestic cows, but they still look like and are not significantly different from pure bison. I just don't see any differences between hobby form albopilosum and wild spiders from Honduras- the wild ones are even quite variable. Is there evidence that the original honduran imports generally looked different from today's hobby population?

 

[Genix]

Hondurans and Nicaraguans are different. Hondurans have been in the hobby forever, and over time, many have been hybridized with vagans.....which is why you see many hondurans that just dont have the curly fluff one would expect. Nicaraguans were recently flooded into the hobby, these are not only pure, but hit the hobby at a time when we are more conscious of the negative aspects of hybridization.

My big worry for the nicaraguans is hybridization with hondurans, which would potentially destroy both in the hobby.

Can you give me some links or video links (documentary) about this? I am really interested in learning about them.

I also read that crossbred species doesn't live long. So if a honduran curly hair is actually a crossbred, then why does it survive so long in captivity? Is their DNA so close to vagans or any other species they are paired with?

 

[The Grym Reaper]

My big worry for the nicaraguans is hybridization with hondurans, which would potentially destroy both in the hobby.

This is made worse for the Honduran form by the fact that you have people actively going around telling others not to breed them at all and to let them die out of the hobby.

 

[cold blood]

Can you give me some links or video links (documentary) about this? I am really interested in learning about them.

just search the boards...this is the place I find most of this info.

 

[Arachnid Addicted]

Note: I didn't have the time to read the whole thread, yet, only OP questions. Sorry if I'm being redundant here.

So, here's what I got about T. albopilosus over the years.

In the hobby:

Honduras - they've been in the hobby for decades and were not only being succesfully paired with T. vagans, but also, with other "red rumpers" Tliltocatl species (if not all of them).
Because of this mess, not to mention, irresponsability, nowadays, it is hard to find pure individuals in pet trade.

Nicaragua - I don't know when exactly these guys were introduced in pet trade, but in comparison with the other one, we can say it was quite recently. People are now more aware about the prejudice of hybrids and most keepers are avoiding crossbreed with these guys.

Honduras x Nicaragua - tbh, I can't say if they are the same species or not, I don't know if anyone of us hobbysts can be sure about that since there aren't a proper revision of the genus. Jorge Mendoza only separated them of Brachypelma and are now, working on Tliltocatl.
It doesn't matter, though, if they are the same species or not, they should not be paired, this will turn into a mess and eventually, it will happen the same as the Honduras situation now.
I won't be surprise if crossbred individuals weren't already been spread in the hobby, though.

In science
Here, I won't separate them in Honduras or Nicaragua simply because, til these days, the only place of distribution these guys have is Costa Rica, and yet, we don't see any costa rican individuals in pet trade. They might be all the same, specially because the proximity of the localities, but we can't put aside the chances of them being different species so, on this note, I'll wait for more informations in a new revision of the genus.

I believe it's worth remember y'all that, because of all the mess mentioned here, a revision won't solve pet trade problems, but it will cause more confusion. Lol.

 

[Pana Lemontzis]

Another hybrid maker hater, yipee!

Hybrid speciments are the worse thing in the entire hobby