Arboreal T suggestions?

[Poec54]

- I would have been happy that people are helping me with keeping a P.metallica. But, even if one adverse Incident happened, it would have put me off (or any other newbie for that matter), since no one had mentioned that it would have been better to start with a harmless NW terrestrial (or an Avic for that matter).

- My point is that, most of us newbies don't know much about what we are getting into. Maybe at first we might not be happy with the correct advice that we're being offered (e.g. start with a boring NW terrestrial etc).but if faced with an adverse situation, we'll be inherently thankful that someone offered us an advice that was needed( and not the advice that we were looking for at that time).

Why I'm saying this is, because IMHO, the hobby itself (and the safety of those involved) is more important that any individual one of us. We have to do all that is required to promote it ( and in a good way).

This is just 2 cents worth of opinion from a newbie...

Thank you. It's always inspiring to see someone who 'gets it'; who can set their ego aside and listen, absorb, and process. Beginners come here to ask questions and learn from people who've been doing this for years. Regardless of how much 'research' they've done, we often see that they're at square one knowledge-wise, and if their selections are based on pretty colors alone, they're probably oblivious to the huge difference in species behavior, speed, and venom. This doesn't apply to every beginner, but it's common. If we don't talk to them about it when they've chosen a OW early on, then what credibility do we have, when they come here looking up to us to advise them? "Oh, sorry about that nasty bite, but you seem to have made up your mind before you came here and we didn't want to risk hurting your feelings, so we let you walk into that situation with blinders on. It's what we do!"

I'd much prefer that we ask questions in return, inform them, & make them aware of what their getting into, than to simply rubber stamp whatever wild things they come up with. We should want it to be a good fit for them. We've had some members proclaim that every species is a good choice for a first tarantula! Some specifically have mentioned OBT's and Stromatopelma as great first choices, as long as 'they've done some research' (and we've seen much bad info is out there). With recommendations like that, why would anyone ask us more questions?

 

[Abyss]

You're missing the point in that we're all aware that they can buy whatever they with their money. It's a free country. We don't 'dictate' squat. I don't even know these people or where they live. They come here to get advice from experienced people. Every whim & decision made by a beginner isn't always a good one. I tell them what they need to hear, not what they necessarily want to hear. In the beginning, they really don't know what they need to here. Our job isn't reaffirming questionable decisions. What good does it do for them to have a bad experience early on? And we're part of that if no one here had the backbone to make them aware of the pros and cons. What knowledge do they come here with: care sheets & daredevil videos? We've seen some beginners who've 'done a lot of research', who don't know the basics, who don't know how to care for a calm NW terrestrial. To get an OW arboreal when they don't even know that, and we're supposed reinforce that choice because they have their heart set on it? What if they, or a family member gets bit by an escapee? I'd like to think that our advice should try to keep them out of that situation, and it takes time to get hands-on experience, something you can't get from a chat room.

The 'pretty blue one' I was referring to is P metallica; that's not an entry level spider. A few people can start with them and have the situation under control, but for the average beginner, it's probably more spider than they can deal with. OW's, terrestrial and arboreal, are unpredictable & faster than most beginners can react (that how OW's avoid predation). How of them many realize that grown men have gone to emergency rooms in the middle of the night because the pain was so intense? We had a thread last month on the severity of OW venoms, some serious stuff there. I think we have an obligation to steer beginners away from heading in that direction, especially if they don't live alone. It's not fair to the person, the spider, and the people they live with. The old 'bit off more than you can chew' thing. Instant gratification, the race to advanced species, is something we should discourage. They'll do what they want, and a number have heeded our advice and thanked us.

Again i Agree but my point is still being missed it think. I advocate offing the sound advice of alternative T's just not at the expense of the original help one is seeking.

The answer to
"what type of enclosure should my Poecilatheria get"
is NOT
"well thats an advanced species so you need a rosie till you learn how to care for them, then you need a GBB to help you learn about faster T's, then you need an avic to learn about arboreals, then when we all will agree your rdy, we will finally answer your Poecilatheria questions rather then diverting away from your questions and not goving you the info you seek".
IMO, a far far better answer wouod read something like
"Poecs are arboreal so they require an arboreal setup. More verticle space then floor space. DO NOT worry about humidity or follow care sheets. Plz understand this is a VERY fast species with pretty potent venom and these are NOT to be taken litely. If your not yet an exoerienced enough keeper, i stongly suggest you check out ____,____,or ____ T's as more beginner species to help get you ready and get you experience"

Just an example of course but i guess
We may have to agree to disagree

 

[Abyss]

I think we hijacked the thread lol
Sorry OP

 

[Poec54]

Again i Agree but my point is still being missed it think. I advocate offing the sound advice of alternative T's just not at the expense of the original help one is seeking.

The answer to
"what type of enclosure should my Poecilatheria get"
is NOT
"well thats an advanced species so you need a rosie till you learn how to care for them, then you need a GBB to help you learn about faster T's, then you need an avic to learn about arboreals, then when we all will agree your rdy, we will finally answer your Poecilatheria questions rather then diverting away from your questions and not goving you the info you seek".

I fully understand your point; we disagree. I think rubber stamping doesn't help many of the newcomers who come here asking questions. We haven't done our job when people can say: "My Poecilotheria got loose, and I just found out how venomous it is. My spouse/family are really upset. Why didn't you say something when I said I wanted it as my first spider? I thought it was like a red leg I saw someone holding. I didn't think experienced people wouldn't let a beginner blindly walk into that." If you're comfortable with that, fine. I'm not.

 

[Matabuey]

I fully understand your point; we disagree. I think rubber stamping doesn't help many of the newcomers who come here asking questions. We haven't done our job when people can say: "My Poecilotheria got loose, and I just found out how venomous it is. My spouse/family are really upset. Why didn't you say something when I said I wanted it as my first spider? I thought it was like a red leg I saw someone holding. I didn't think experienced people wouldn't let a beginner blindly walk into that." If you're comfortable with that, fine. I'm not.

If someone comes here saying that, they're beyond help. And have 0 common sense, and clearly won't even take the time to do their own research, thus won't probably listen to any advice given.

It takes 1 brain cell, to find out that Pokies and the like are fast T's that have "strong" venom. Literally every website in the world will tell you that. Every care sheet whether good or bad, will have parrellels in that they point out that they're fast, defensive and have strong venom.

Besides, I've never seen anyone be that ridiculous before. Think it's an over exaggeration by quite some. They may well be startled by the fact it was faster than expected (I was surprised how quick my t.gigas was - because I've never owned one). But the venomous part seems over fabricated. As literally every single link will state their venom strength.

 

[Abyss]

I fully understand your point; we disagree. I think rubber stamping doesn't help many of the newcomers who come here asking questions. We haven't done our job when people can say: "My Poecilotheria got loose, and I just found out how venomous it is. My spouse/family are really upset. Why didn't you say something when I said I wanted it as my first spider? I thought it was like a red leg I saw someone holding. I didn't think experienced people wouldn't let a beginner blindly walk into that." If you're comfortable with that, fine. I'm not.

Not at all pal. I just think its the approach some take. Completly diverting from the question to tell ppl what T need to buy doesnt serve the community any better then "enabling" bad decisions. Both extremes are detrimental.
To me, providing the requested info (and more) is just as important as offering alternative T advice.

 

[Abyss]

Lol @Poec54
On a complete side note, why cant everyone in the world disagree politely like us lol

 

[JumpingSpiderLady]

"Poecs are arboreal so they require an arboreal setup. More verticle space then floor space. DO NOT worry about humidity or follow care sheets. Plz understand this is a VERY fast species with pretty potent venom and these are NOT to be taken litely. If your not yet an exoerienced enough keeper, i stongly suggest you check out ____,____,or ____ T's as more beginner species to help get you ready and get you experience"

With just a bit more elaboration on the suggested species, I'd say this is a perfect response.
As an adult, I'm not easily offended, so (just for me personally mind you) I could take being told, "Don't buy that! It's a terrible bigger T because of this, this and this" but as a stubborn teen, I was eager to never be wrong about anything and that type of blunt, straightforward advice would have made me want to do exactly what had been advised against.
Yeah, I was pretty stupid. Who wasn't?

 

[Abyss]

With just a bit more elaboration on the suggested species, I'd say this is a perfect response.
As an adult, I'm not easily offended, so (just for me personally mind you) I could take being told, "Don't buy that! It's a terrible bigger T because of this, this and this" but as a stubborn teen, I was eager to never be wrong about anything and that type of blunt, straightforward advice would have made me want to do exactly what had been advised against.
Yeah, I was pretty stupid. Who wasn't?

Lol we all were at one point lol an yea i was being generic as an example. Coulda been more detailed but my responses are winded enough as is hahahaha

 

[bryverine]

It's not because they're new world - there are plenty of dull/boring to look at old world species like Pelinobius muticus.

I've got a blasphemer for you here @Chris LXXIX .

 

[Trenor]

"My Poecilotheria got loose, and I just found out how venomous it is. My spouse/family are really upset. Why didn't you say something when I said I wanted it as my first spider? I thought it was like a red leg I saw someone holding. I didn't think experienced people wouldn't let a beginner blindly walk into that."

Has this ever happened?

IMO if someone comes on here asking for information about an advanced species and I have information they are going to get it. I'll give them the information they ask about and everything else I know about it. Including care, dangers, venom etc.

A friend of mine was not happy about her son wanting a hand gun when he turned 21. He had never been around them and she didn't think he should have one. She told him that in a very poor manor and he got one anyway. Due to his lack of experience with any firearm I felt he wasn't ready for one either. I took him down to Dad's and taught him how to handle his gun and the safety he needed to know. Now he shoots regularly and handles a gun very well.

My point is an informed person is always better off. I gave him the information to help reduce the risks involved with the choice he made. I pointed out what he didn't know. Even after he bought the gun, the difference between my approach and his mothers is she just wanted to tell him whatever was needed for him 'to get rid of the thing' and he could tell this and balked. I told (and showed) him what he needed to know to be as safe as he could be and he responded to that. The approach you use matters. An informed person is always better off then one who isn't.

Honestly, if people on here were to look at the sheer amount of pokies (and other OW Ts) that are sold at shows and on FB (just the few groups I'm on) they would probably stroke out. These are not all going to experienced keepers. Give them the information the need. Give them the whole break down on the species (upsides and downsides). All of it. Then they can make a informed decision on how they want to precede... even if it's not the way you personally might want them to go.

 

[bryverine]

If someone comes here saying that, they're beyond help. And have 0 common sense, and clearly won't even take the time to do their own research, thus won't probably listen to any advice given.

It takes 1 brain cell, to find out that Pokies and the like are fast T's that have "strong" venom. Literally every website in the world will tell you that. Every care sheet whether good or bad, will have parrellels in that they point out that they're fast, defensive and have strong venom.

Besides, I've never seen anyone be that ridiculous before. Think it's an over exaggeration by quite some. They may well be startled by the fact it was faster than expected (I was surprised how quick my t.gigas was - because I've never owned one). But the venomous part seems over fabricated. As literally every single link will state their venom strength.

It depends on what you consider research. Searching for "P. metallica" shows someone holding one in 26 pictures where "G. rosea" is being held at 21. It's worse if you search using common names. No this isn't proof of anything except that if you look at pictures, you COULD easily come across a freeze frame of an "easily tamale and handleable" blue tarantula.

At one of my LPS, a gentleman was talking to the 'tarantula expert' about his avic he bought for his daughter to hold that had died. She was trying to interest him in a P. metallica.

My extensive research led me to kill my first avic. Six care sheets with similar requirements and two pet store employees with similar stories seemed pretty solid at the time.

 

[Trenor]

My extensive research led me to kill my first avic. Six care sheets with similar requirements and two pet store employees with similar stories seemed pretty solid at the time.

I agree with this. A lot of people seem to have done research and just go a hold of bad information. It's the internet, judging valid sources for information is hard at best. Treating them as if they are lying or just dumb and beyond help does not help anything. Saying things like "clearly you have done no research or you would know X" is not always true and not helpful. Make you case for the information you have and realize not everyone starts in the hobby with good information. Hopefully the reason we all are here is to fix the bad information they got and give them other good information they need.

 

[Poec54]

Not at all pal. I just think its the approach some take. Completly diverting from the question to tell ppl what T need to buy doesnt serve the community any better then "enabling" bad decisions. Both extremes are detrimental.
To me, providing the requested info (and more) is just as important as offering alternative T advice.

Again, we don't tell anyone what they should, or have to buy. When a newcomer is here and wanting an OW, I'd like to verify that they know what they're getting into. Some don't. That's nothing to get offended about, especially with all the bad info they find when they do research, if they've even done research. Not all have.

We've had beginners change their minds, change their orders, and even sell/trade the OW's they got, all based on our recommendations. That's proof that they didn't fully know what they were getting into. I think it's putting the cart before the horse to talk care of an OW, before they understand just what that ownership entails. Some certainly don't realize the speed, unpredictability, and venom, and are thankful we informed them of that before they had an unpleasant experience.

To me, priority #1 is that the spider is a good fit for them, their situation, and their expectations. I think it's very important at the outset that they know species selection has a big impact on escapes and bites. You keep doing what you do, and I'll keep doing what I do.

 

[Poec54]

Has this ever happened?

Never. I make all this stuff up. No one's ever bought a tarantula beyond their experience level and had it escape or bite them. The bite reports are all faked.

 

[cold blood]

Op, looking at the enclosure on the previous thread, it appears as if you almost set it up to fail....you have cork in there, but frankly its squat and actually more suited to a Psalm or Poec, and aside from that, there are zero plants surrounding that cork...without plants providing cover, that cork is just a bare island that offers nothing to hide behind, and no anchor points....Without proper tools (cover), the t will feel exposed and never get comfortable.

Next time don't go so barren, avics especially love to have a home cluttered with plants and wood.

And I am with poec, too much venting can be just as bad and was a likely a contributing factor....and while some can/do make it work...those people also may live in a different climate or keep them a little different to compensate...those people also will tend to be much more experienced, like CEC.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

there are plenty of dull/boring to look at old world species like Pelinobius muticus.

The Goddess 0.1 Pelinobius muticus PBUH (Peace Be Upon Her) 'dull' & 'boring' ?!@Eek!#-$=£->!!!Ebola viruz E=mc2/

HERESY nuff said

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Never. I make all this stuff up.

Because "you're detrimental to the hobby!"

 

[Abyss]

Again, we don't tell anyone what they should, or have to buy. When a newcomer is here and wanting an OW, I'd like to verify that they know what they're getting into. Some don't. That's nothing to get offended about, especially with all the bad info they find when they do research, if they've even done research. Not all have.

We've had beginners change their minds, change their orders, and even sell/trade the OW's they got, all based on our recommendations. That's proof that they didn't fully know what they were getting into. I think it's putting the cart before the horse to talk care of an OW, before they understand just what that ownership entails. Some certainly don't realize the speed, unpredictability, and venom, and are thankful we informed them of that before they had an unpleasant experience.

To me, priority #1 is that the spider is a good fit for them, their situation, and their expectations. I think it's very important at the outset that they know species selection has a big impact on escapes and bites. You keep doing what you do, and I'll keep doing what I do.

Now we reach common ground (knew it'd happen eventually haha) agree fully here. My refetences were to those (again, not saying you do this) that directly avoid questions an go on to rant an lecture about what T a person should/shouldnt buy. Proper info is powerful when presented properly and helpfully

 

[hennibbale]

Op, looking at the enclosure on the previous thread, it appears as if you almost set it up to fail....you have cork in there, but frankly its squat and actually more suited to a Psalm or Poec, and aside from that, there are zero plants surrounding that cork...without plants providing cover, that cork is just a bare island that offers nothing to hide behind, and no anchor points....Without proper tools (cover), the t will feel exposed and never get comfortable.

Next time don't go so barren, avics especially love to have a home cluttered with plants and wood.

And I am with poec, too much venting can be just as bad and was a likely a contributing factor....and while some can/do make it work...those people also may live in a different climate or keep them a little different to compensate...those people also will tend to be much more experienced, like CEC.

I was going to get the fake leaves in a couple of days, I just couldn't get them because of "surprise expenses" so I had to wait a while to get money.