Aphonopelma mooreae real species?

bloodred1889

Arachnoknight
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ok so im listing all the blue tarantulas i can for a thread and for research
looked at pictures and been on many web pages.
came across this species on rick wests website aphonepelma moorei and in a picture on his site this tarantula is blue.
so i looked on the genus index on this forum and coudnt see a single one on there.

so do they exist, are they really rare or an sp species?

im just confused.

please anyone know?
 

Zoltan

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It's as real as any species, but the specific name is mooreae, not "moorei".
 

Bill S

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real species and virtually non existent in the hobby atm.
That's because they are found only in Mexico, and Mexico prohibits export. They're fairly common within their range - a friend of mine doing work in the area has sent pictures of both mature males and females he's seen this summer.
 

Widowman10

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bill, some can be found in the states. there was mention of this in a couple of the older threads on the same topic.
 

codykrr

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^ yup.I started a thread asking about these last year I think. There are some found in new mexico, and a few other places. Mainly at very high altitude. they are hard to get to, hard to find, and NO ONE will disclose and actual location or even remote location as to where these can be found in the states.

Very pretty T non the less. but you could get a GBB and have the same looking T dang near.(I still want one though as I do love my Aphonopelma:D)
 

Bill S

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bill, some can be found in the states. there was mention of this in a couple of the older threads on the same topic.
I saw that mention, but it was far short of a true report of the tarantula's range. No location was given, just the mention that an unknown person or people had seen them/captured them at unknown locations north of the border. There was a hint given that the secrecy was to protect the north-of-the-border population. But such secrecy can also be a means of covering the fact that specimens were illegally brought in from Mexico.

The spiders are found in conditions in Mexico that are not duplicated on this side of the border. Humidity, temperature ranges, vegetation, etc., are all different. I live near the border and have collected in mountain ranges along the border. Until someone actually documents seeing this species at a verifiable site on this side of the border I will consider them a Mexican species. It's not completely impossible - there are plenty of species of spiders that live in both regions. But it's highly unlikely.
 

Widowman10

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did you read the other threads by any chance? the few reports were not by some random dude, but by trustworthy sources.
 

Bill S

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There are some found in new mexico, and a few other places. Mainly at very high altitude. they are hard to get to, hard to find, and NO ONE will disclose and actual location or even remote location as to where these can be found in the states.
Cody, that's the very reason I'm so suspicious. Animals do not change their natural history when they cross political boundaries. An animal that is found in warm, moist Sonoran desert scrub at low elevations in Mexico is going to be found in similar conditions on this side of the border. Not in extremely high elevation Chihuahuan montane environment.

Widowman10 said:
did you read the other threads by any chance? the few reports were not by some random dude, but by trustworthy sources.
Yes, I read other posts. I did not see any first person accounts by trustworthy sources. If there were any, please link them and I'll check them out. What I saw were suggestions that "undisclosed" reliable sources knew secret locations. That's not scientifically good enough.

Back a few decades ago there was an Indian scientist named Gupta who published extensively on the fossil fauna of the Himalayas. Claimed to make all kinds of exciting finds at vaguely defined locations. At that point it was very difficult for other people to get permits to study the area, so his work went unchallenged. Until someone caught a mistake. He'd used photos of the same rock in two different publications with two different stories of where it came from. This triggered some serious investigation, and it eventually turned up that he'd been buying fossils from all around the world and claiming to find them in the Himalayas.

Yes, fraud happens. If someone has some smuggled A. mooreae into this country and wants to be able to sell offspring at some future time, there would be inducements to pretend the original stock came from somewhere north of the border. And of course, the best way to keep the location secret is for it to be in remote high elevation mountains that nobody can get into. I'm not accusing anyone of fraud here. But I'm saying that there have been no credible reports that I'm aware of that show that A. mooreae is found on this side of the border. But I'm certainly open to reviewing any reports that someone can point me to. As I said in another post - I'm not saying it's impossible that A. mooreae occurs in the U.S. - but I find it highly doubtful. Especially if the alleged northern poulation is found in completely different habitat and conditions than the southern population.
 

Bill S

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A quick modification of my earlier points - A. mooreae is found in Madrean pine/oak woodland. Not exactly low elevation, but certainly not "very high altitudes" either. There are several mountain ranges in Arizona and New Mexico close to the border that have Madrean pine/oak woodland part way up their slopes. So I'll grant a possibility there. However, documented reports are lacking. I appreciate the desire for secrecy, but from a scientific point of view - undocumented stories are just stories.
 

Versi*JP*Color

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It looks so much alike but with different blues.
The carapace is like a shiny sky blue.
The legs have a darker p.metallica type coloration.
 

Bill S

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It looks so much alike but with different blues.
The carapace is like a shiny sky blue.
The legs have a darker p.metallica type coloration.
I saw a photograph a few days ago of a mature male found in a different part of its range, and the colors weren't as bright.
 

codykrr

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^ could have beem an old male.

I see your point in being Skeptical. but I believe the person I spoke with on the subject. He would have no reason to lie to me.

I am sure there are a few who brought them in illegally. But The person I spoke to claims to have collected his two here in the states. In arizona to be exact.

Also I have seen pictures from this persons collection and the female are very bright blue and green as well. Im not name dropping, but lets just say this person recently sold out.;)
 

Bill S

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I see your point in being Skeptical. but I believe the person I spoke with on the subject. He would have no reason to lie to me.
And that is an important difference. You have someone presenting first hand knowledge - presumably someone that you know and have faith in. The rest of us have only third hand accounts with no documentation, no sources we can directly evaluate. And (not picking on you) conflicting stories to judge by. Earlier you said they came from extremely high altitudes in New Mexico. Now you are saying they were found in Arizona. Arizona would be more believeable to me than New Mexico due to difference in the environment, but I'd still need some convincing evidence to accept them in Arizona. (Note - of four people whom I know personnally who have found A. mooreae in Mexico, four of them have worked more extensively in the mountains of Arizona. It's odd that those same people have never seen these spiders in Arizona. And one of those people is the arachnologist who first discovered the species.)
 

josh_r

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And that is an important difference. You have someone presenting first hand knowledge - presumably someone that you know and have faith in. The rest of us have only third hand accounts with no documentation, no sources we can directly evaluate. And (not picking on you) conflicting stories to judge by. Earlier you said they came from extremely high altitudes in New Mexico. Now you are saying they were found in Arizona. Arizona would be more believeable to me than New Mexico due to difference in the environment, but I'd still need some convincing evidence to accept them in Arizona. (Note - of four people whom I know personnally who have found A. mooreae in Mexico, four of them have worked more extensively in the mountains of Arizona. It's odd that those same people have never seen these spiders in Arizona. And one of those people is the arachnologist who first discovered the species.)
I know of 2 or 3 people living in arizona who have smuggled these back and I very much believe all these stories are manufactured to cover their illegal activity. The sky islands in southern AZ are so unique in habitat and animal life that they have been so heavily explored, if mooreae were there, i don't see how it couldn't have been documented. How would a bright mettalic blue or green spider go unnoticed for so long?? The prime habitat for this spider just so happend to be the prime habitat for many other very popular species, crotalus willardi willardi and crotalus l. klauberi are perfect examples. This area is one of the most famous spots for herping and people travel from all over the place to herp here, yet no one has yet to find mooreae in any of these mountains and prove their findings. I think its just a manufactured story to hide the fact that these people illegally brought them over.
 

recluse

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I know of 2 or 3 people living in arizona who have smuggled these back and I very much believe all these stories are manufactured to cover their illegal activity. The sky islands in southern AZ are so unique in habitat and animal life that they have been so heavily explored, if mooreae were there, i don't see how it couldn't have been documented. How would a bright mettalic blue or green spider go unnoticed for so long?? The prime habitat for this spider just so happend to be the prime habitat for many other very popular species, crotalus willardi willardi and crotalus l. klauberi are perfect examples. This area is one of the most famous spots for herping and people travel from all over the place to herp here, yet no one has yet to find mooreae in any of these mountains and prove their findings. I think its just a manufactured story to hide the fact that these people illegally brought them over.
Josh my brother, The Sky Islands that also are in Western NM are one in the same. I wasn't going to drop a locale, but this is probably the most plausable spot as far as some are concerned. I cant say one way or the other as I have not seen any. I think some of the A. behlei complex can be confused with A. mooreae. Just my two cents.
 

jbm150

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Holy smokes, it does look like a GBB only more vibrant.

Is there any question about whether it belongs in Aphonopelma or not?
 
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