Ant Colony in Roach Colony

Karifever

Arachnopeon
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Sep 1, 2016
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I set up a bioactive red runner colony a few months ago with a nice springtail population and recently I noticed that a queen ant must have been in the soil and started a little colony down there. I am very wary to put in any ant poison that may get eaten by the roaches. I’ve considered adding boiling water to the substrate, but I haven’t seen that work in real life just yet.
I would love to hear any solutions any of you may have to this issue!
 

Scorpiobsession

Arachnobaron
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Mar 1, 2021
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301
There are very few things you can do to hurt the ants but not the roaches. Could you provide a picture and dimensions of your enclosure, that might help with some ideas. Also what is your estimated population of your roaches?
 

Matts inverts

Arachnoangel
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Have you considered having an ant farm? Try picking the ants out when you see them. There is no way to do it quickly. All you can do is just slowly pick them out until there are none.
 

Scorpiobsession

Arachnobaron
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Have you considered having an ant farm? Try picking the ants out when you see them. There is no way to do it quickly. All you can do is just slowly pick them out until there are none.
There's likely too many to reliably pick them out, they would be reproducing faster than you could catch them.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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I've been studying this phenomenon for several years around and in our house. What you have is a rudimentary ecosystem. The ants ordinarily won't attack healthy animals but any roach that becomes debilitated will quickly be hacked up and carried off. It's a balance that is actually beneficial as long as it stays in balance. Any debris that can harbor harmful microorganisms is cleaned up by the ants. How long can this balance continue is the question. I'd say, indefinitely, as long as some factor doesn't enter in and cause the ants to go into a feeding frenzy.
As for eradicating the ants, every chamber that harbors a queen and eggs must be found and destroyed. Otherwise the ant colony will produce more queens. Ants automatically utilize parthenogenesis to maintain the colony.
Another interesting aspect is the formic acid that literally permeates the lives of ants. It acts as a growth inhibitor of bacteria so the ants are always able to stay ahead of the game.
 
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Karifever

Arachnopeon
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Sep 1, 2016
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There are very few things you can do to hurt the ants but not the roaches. Could you provide a picture and dimensions of your enclosure, that might help with some ideas. Also what is your estimated population of your roaches?
The enclosure dimensions are 12x12x24. I would guess there are 200-400 roaches (the wide range is because most of them hang out inside the hollowed out log piece in the middle so I can’t give a super accurate visual estimate.
 

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Karifever

Arachnopeon
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Sep 1, 2016
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Have you considered having an ant farm? Try picking the ants out when you see them. There is no way to do it quickly. All you can do is just slowly pick them out until there are none.
I would be too worried they would escape some day honestly, but I do enjoy seeing AntsCanada’s setups!
 

Karifever

Arachnopeon
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Sep 1, 2016
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I've been studying this phenomenon for several years around and in our house. What you have is a rudimentary ecosystem. The ants ordinarily won't attack healthy animals but any roach that becomes debilitated will quickly be hacked up and carried off. It's a balance that is actually beneficial as long as it stays in balance. Any debris that can harbor harmful microorganisms is cleaned up by the ants. How long can this balance continue is the question. I'd say, indefinitely, as long as some factor doesn't eneter in and cause the ants to go into a feeding frenzy.
As for eradicating the ants, every chamber that harbors a queen and eggs must be found and destroyed. Otherwise the ant colony will produce more queens. Ants automatically utilize parthenogenesis to maintain the colony.
So far, the ants haven’t eaten the roaches and I’m not too worried about that. They are kind of like an extra clean-up crew and I wouldn’t mind keeping them in there except for two worries: (1) they may continue growing and reach the point where they start looking for more living space and begin to migrate out and (2) when I feed the roaches off, some ants may tag along and get into the other enclosures.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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So far, the ants haven’t eaten the roaches and I’m not too worried about that. They are kind of like an extra clean-up crew and I wouldn’t mind keeping them in there except for two worries: (1) they may continue growing and reach the point where they start looking for more living space and begin to migrate out and (2) when I feed the roaches off, some ants may tag along and get into the other enclosures.
That's the problem. Ants will always attempt to overpopulate. Sometimes, around our house, we get population explosions. If there is available food the colonies will continue to expand.
 

Scorpiobsession

Arachnobaron
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I've been studying this phenomenon for several years around and in our house. What you have is a rudimentary ecosystem. The ants ordinarily won't attack healthy animals but any roach that becomes debilitated will quickly be hacked up and carried off. It's a balance that is actually beneficial as long as it stays in balance. Any debris that can harbor harmful microorganisms is cleaned up by the ants. How long can this balance continue is the question. I'd say, indefinitely, as long as some factor doesn't eneter in and cause the ants to go into a feeding frenzy.
As for eradicating the ants, every chamber that harbors a queen and eggs must be found and destroyed. Otherwise the ant colony will produce more queens. Ants automatically utilize parthenogenesis to maintain the colony.
*enter
It's anything but balanced, the ants have a surplus of food and nothing is keeping them in check. The ants will reproduce in mass numbers and likely escape and overrun the colony, causing unnecessary stress to the roaches. The best way to get rid of them would be to take as many of the roaches out as possible (roach by roach, not any way that could move ants) and then dig up the soil and kill all of the ants you see. You could also just start a new colony but that would contain the risk of possibly spreading the ants to that colony.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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I've tried every substance available to control ants around here. NOTHING WORKS. Name, it, I've tried it. I've resorted to the very judicious selective use of Chaindrite poison to sever the ant trails as a deterrent. A month ago they invaded and we had to take the kitchen apart. Found five colonies started in and under objects.
 

Karifever

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I have had success with liquid ant bait in getting rid of ant colonies invading the house. Maybe I could take as many roaches as I can reach out into a separate container temporarily and put in a liquid ant bait trap to kill off the ant colony. I assume it would kill some of the roaches and clean up crew too but it may be the most streamlined way I can think of so far.
 

The Snark

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have had success with liquid ant bait in getting rid of ant colonies invading the house. Maybe I could take as many roaches as I can reach out into a separate container temporarily and put in a liquid ant bait trap to kill off the ant colony. I assume it would kill some of the roaches and clean up crew too but it may be the most streamlined way I can think of so far.
That is a solution. But in our environment, basically attempting to coexist with nature, certain chemicals are avoided. Baits are perforce pervasive and remain for an extended period of time in the ecosystem. They can and do work, but on down the road... ? So what effect will the latent toxin have on the roaches?
 

Scorpiobsession

Arachnobaron
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I have had success with liquid ant bait in getting rid of ant colonies invading the house. Maybe I could take as many roaches as I can reach out into a separate container temporarily and put in a liquid ant bait trap to kill off the ant colony. I assume it would kill some of the roaches and clean up crew too but it may be the most streamlined way I can think of so far.
I agree with The Snark. You don't want to poison the roaches (especially if they're feeders). There could be many negative consequences down the line and there isn't even a guarantee that all of the ants will be killed.
 

Karifever

Arachnopeon
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That is a solution. But in our environment, basically attempting to coexist with nature, certain chemicals are avoided. Baits are perforce pervasive and remain for an extended period of time in the ecosystem. They can and do work, but on down the road... ? So what effect will the latent toxin have on the roaches?
It’s supposed to work by the ants feeding it to the queen and other ants down in the colony I think, so after they die, the toxins would probably be in the soil where the ants died. I assume this would temporarily affect the microorganisms in that area, but I don’t expect it would affect much else. The roaches don’t dig down to where the ants are.
I would prefer not to use any liquid ant bait in favor of a more organic solution. I don’t think I’ll be able to pick out all of the ants or the queen from the enclosure. I have added small soil spiders to get rid of small ant infestations in another enclosure before with much success, but I feel like they would also trap the roaches lol.
 

Karifever

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I agree with The Snark. You don't want to poison the roaches (especially if they're feeders). There could be many negative consequences down the line and there isn't even a guarantee that all of the ants will be killed.
Do you think boiling water would work?
 

Scorpiobsession

Arachnobaron
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Do you think boiling water would work?
As long as the enclosure is:
a) Watertight
b) The silicon corners won't melt or be damaged
c) The glass won't break, if possible don't pour it directly on the glass and try to heat it slightly first to reduce the risk of it breaking.

Many roaches would likely die (even if you remove most of them) but it should kill most of the ants, hopefully including the queen. You might also be able to use a dawn and water mix but I'm not sure if that would cause long-lasting effects. I agree with Edan that it would be easier just to redo the enclosure.
 
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