Another P. trans housing question

[Reitz]

I recieved the breeding pair today, and have a few more questions. First, it appears that neither is an adult. The male is about 3.5 inches (could be an adult, I guess), and the female is 3 inches. Are they going to be any more likely to fight as sub-adults? Also, the male is missing part of his last leg, so he's slower than the female. As of now that's great, since the female is smaller. But when she gets big is that going to pose a problem?

Thanks for the input,

Chris

 

[Kugellager]

Even though they are not adults I would not put them together. P.transvaalicus is just not a good species to attempt to keep them communally...you have a good chance of ending up with one of them dead in short order.

I would not recommend attempting to keep any of the buthids in Androctonus, Buthus or Parabuthus genus communally. They are more solitary scorpions than most...because of this its just not worth it to gamble on them.

That said; I have heard of people keeping P.leiosoma together though I'm not sure how well they got along.

John
];')

 

[Reitz]

I appreciate the response--and under normal circumstances I would take the advice, but in this case I'm kind of experimenting. I've always heard that these scorpions do not make good tank mates, but haven't gotten evidence to back it up. The claims have mostly been made based on breeding attempts in which both animals were not properly "introduced," and in the cases I've heard had not been power fed before being grouped together. If you'll remember a while back Dave shacked up a pair. He ended up separating them, but only because the female had closed herself off in her burrow. Also, Parabuthus sp. tend to be much calmer than Androctonus and Buthus. Obviously this doesn't mean that they're communal, but I'm hoping that they're going to be less confrontational. I'm going to keep them very well fed, so there really shouldn't be a reason for them to fight, except over territory, and I've supplied them with numerous hides. I've also read that in the wild they can be found living very close to one another--again, this doesn't mean they're communal, but I think that it does beg experimentation.

That being said, I am a broke college student, so I can't afford to lose a $30 scorp to a failed trail run. Nevertheless, I'm going to keep them together until they give me reason to do otherwise (though I can't watch them 24/7, so we'll see what happens). What my question comes down to is, if I'm going to do this experiment either way, should I wait till they're mature, or will age not make a difference?

Again, I appreciate you looking out for my best interests, and I may be making a foolish mistake, but I'd like to challenge current pratices of scorpion keeping for my own edification.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Reitz]

Alright, questions again (sorry, but I'd really like to do this right).

I stayed up late last night working on a paper, so I decieded to let them play together all night. EVERY time the male bumped into the female he responded. He'd immediately grab her and try to get a hold of her chela. He would then drag her all over the tank while she passively went along for the ride. I assumed this was mating activity, but of all the mating I've seen, this was much more aggressive, and at a much younger age (the female must be at least 2 molts away from adulthood). On the plus side, neither scorpion EVER stung the other, not even in that "mating" kind of way. Still, given the aggression that the much larger male was demonstrating, I was sure I'd wake up with 1.5 scorpions left. I woke up this morning, however, to find them sharing a burrow. There's space between them, but only about an inch, and they're easily within sensing range of one another.

So my questions are, 1) is this a good sign or a bad one? If the male keeps at it like this the female is going to end up pretty battered, but it doesn't look like they're actually fighting; 2) does the male's desire to mate mean that he has reached adulthood at 3 inches? Or do some younger males have the instinct as much as their older, wiser counterparts?

Thanks for the insight,
Chris

 

[skinheaddave]

Chris,

Are you absolutely sure that they are P.transvaalicus? Based on what you've described, the most obvious solution would be that you have a different species that is fully mature. The alternative is that you have two sub-adult P.transvaalicus that are both confused as to their age. Of course another alternative is that you have mature individuals that are much smaller than the average specimen. I just pulled my female out of the freezer and measured her at just over 4".

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Reitz]

Vince sold me the scorpions, and I trust he knows what he's selling. Plus they look like every P. trans I've seen. Male's chela are more bulbus than the females, ect. Since the males are usually smaller than the females I assume that it's possible the male is a 3 inch adult. But the female is no more than 2.5--so she's got to be a sub-adult.

Thanks so much for the input. Any idea if they're going to be more canibalistic as youngsters?

Also, did your male judder when he mated with your female? I ask because I never saw juddering, which at first led me to believe that the male was attacking (as I said, it was very aggressive mating, just without the stinging).

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Kugellager]

Both my male and female are right at about 4" maybe just a hair over 4" in length. You may just have a small pair. However, based on Leemings Scorps of Southern Africa I assumed that 4-6" was the size range as he states that 150 mm is about the max size for these guys. I figured the pair I had was just on the smaller end of 'normal' That may not be so. On the other hand A.bicolor is a slightly smaller scorpion and looks very similar.

Shrug...have you had a chance to take pics yet? Just be careful if/when you do. I recommend putting a small delicup over the scorp to move it to the best position to take the pick and then letting it settle down for a few seconds before removing the cup and snapping the photo. Worked well when I photographed mine.

John
];')

 

[Reitz]

I'm guessing the female is 2 molts from maturity and the male is one. He's probably just an overzelous teenager. I doubt that they're A. bicolor. They're just not shiny enough. As for the pics, I'd love to take some, but I don't have a camera. If I did get a few they'd be though the glass. Both come out every night and don't seem to mind bright lights for a short period of time.

Thanks again for the insight.

Chris

 

[skinheaddave]

Chris,

In my experience there are two types of dealers. There are those that you know don't know what they're talking about. You double-check their IDs because you'd really like some idea of what you have. Then there are those that you trust 100%. You double-check their IDs because you know they are only human.

I also suspect A.bicolor might be what you have your hands on. "Not shiny enough" just doesn't cut it with me as a diagnostic feature -- especially since my Androctonus aren't particularily shiny. Rather than getting you to look at the finer details, however, I've snapped off two pics that I'd like you to compare to your specimen.

First up, A.bicolor.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[skinheaddave]

Next up, P.trans. Yes, there is a size difference. I suspect that the difference with time is not so great, however, that a sub-adult P.trans would resemble an adult A.bicolor more than an adult P.trans. Both the specimens photographed, BTW, are female.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Kugellager]

Excellent photo comparison Dave...save those pics ;')

Here is a question to you Dave...Are you suggesting that a sub-adult P.trans would not have as sharp/distinct granulations as the adult in your photo? That would make sense as I would imagine the protrusions would become more distinct as the scorpion molts.

John
];')

 

[Reitz]

You're right Dave, and John I actually should appoligise for giving such a dismissive defense of my ID. To be honest, until I got these I had never seen a P. trans in person--nor, for that matter, an A. bicolor. My initial reason for thinking these are P. trans is that their telsons are more granulated than that of A. bicolor (at least from the pics I've seen). However, it seems that the granulation comes from where the setae come out of the telson, and I'm sure A. bicolor has setae on their telsons as well, so this may not be enough to go on. "Shiny" is obviously not enough for a positive ID, but these scorps are not solid black, like many A. bicolor I've seen in pics. They're black--that is to say that they're not the browner form of P. trans--but it's not a consistent coloration.

Do you know if the chelea (is that the plural of chela?) of male A. bicolor are larger than those of the females? I know that this is true of P. trans, and of the scorpions I just received. Thank you both for helping me figure this out. I realize that this would be a lot easier if I had a camera. I'll keep asking around for one--I know how frustrating it is when I try to ID a scorpion from a description.

To be honest, I really don't want these to be A. bicolor. From what I understand, A. bicolor are much faster and more aggressive. Plus I understand their venom packs a little bit more of a punch. I'd also like to witness the spraying ability of P. trans first hand for my own knowledge.

Thanks again,
Chris

PS The pictures are very helpful, and when the little guys come out I'll let you if I can make a fair comparison.

 

[Kugellager]

Chris,

Nothing wrong with a little respectful debate...I always learn something...For instance...I never noticed the differences between the metasomas of these two species until Dave posted those pics...I took it for granted that both were thick and had granulations on the segments...never considered to compare the differences between the two...They are quite distinct as we all can now see for ourselves.

John
];')

 

[skinheaddave]

Chris,

There is definitely a dimorphism of the chela in A.bicolor. Whether it is as pronounced or not is hard to determine, as there is the overriding issue of scale. I suppose with some calipers I could provide a small answer, based on a few specimens. Of course, most of my A.bicolor are alive -- they tend to be less cooperative in that state (but, granted, far more interesting).

I can take more pics if you want ... but not right now. I'm studying for my herpetology finaly tommorow.


John,

I'm not suggesting that it IS the case, merely that it may be. I don't know that I've ever seen a subadult P.transvaalicus. It seems to be a valid concern, since we do know that colouration can change with age.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Kugellager]

Here is a decent photo of my male P.transvaalicus just for kicks. He really likes climbing up on that bark. He is up on it 2/3 of the time I see him out of his burrow.

John
];')

 

[Reitz]

Alright, I found a camera and took some pics. They're not great--I'm new at this--but hopefully they'll help.

The female is the only one out at this time, and she's the smaller one, so the pictures aren't going to be as clear.

Here's the first:

 

[Reitz]

And number two:



PS. Good luck on the exam, Dave!

 

[skinheaddave]

It looks like it is probably a Parabuthis. I would like you to just double-check the prosoma, though.

Here is P.trans:

 

[skinheaddave]

And here is A.bicolor. Note, in particular, the ridges just anterior to the medial eyes.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[skinheaddave]

Of course there is still the option of it being another type of Parabuthis. John might be able to pick out a suspect or two from his Scorpions of South Africa book. Otherwise, it may very well be two small adults or two confused teenagers.

Cheers,
Dave