American bullfrog in a 30-gallon aquarium?

[Wayfarin]

Update:
I sort of have a bullfrog now. It's a young one, less than 3" long. We caught it from a nearby pond, and while I wouldn't normally think of keeping wild-caught herptiles, this one is adjusting well. It's even voraciously eating dried crickets, which answers my question about them eating nonliving food. However, we haven't had it for very long, so the door to releasing it might not yet be closed. Any suggestions on what to do? Are you sure a 30-gallon tank wouldn't work?

 

[me and my Ts]

I assume the 30 gallon tank is 32”x12”x16” or something like that right? I don’t think they need that tall of a tank but I don’t figure it could hurt them like tarantulas. I think but I could be wrong that a American bullfrog could live comfortably with a tank footprint of that size however if you have the chance I’d get something 18” deep

 

[Wayfarin]

I assume the 30 gallon tank is 32”x12”x16” or something like that right? I don’t think they need that tall of a tank but I don’t figure it could hurt them like tarantulas. I think but I could be wrong that a American bullfrog could live comfortably with a tank footprint of that size however if you have the chance I’d get something 18” deep

Yeah, those are likely the dimensions.
They need deeper tanks? I'm confused.
But anyway, I can't say for certain how big this tiny individual will grow, but I know that many bullfrogs can reach 6 inches, although few exceed that.

 

[me and my Ts]

Yeah, those are likely the dimensions.
They need deeper tanks? I'm confused.
But anyway, I can't say for certain how big this tiny individual will grow, but I know that many bullfrogs can reach 6 inches, although few exceed that.

No the tank doesn’t need to be deeper. At the moment it’s 12” deep but im saying it’d be ideal if the tank was 18” deep because the frog would probably feel more secure. I think they’ll be fine in the tank you have though.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

I would release the bullfrog. It'll grow quickly if well fed. When you read about the size range of adult bullfrogs, that means they can be sexually mature when they're 3-5" long, not that they'll stop growing and not reach a larger size in captivity. Even then a 30 gallon sounds kinda small for a 4-5" bullfrog. Their habit of taking long, powerful jumps means they tend to constantly slam against the sides of an enclosure even if it's large.

I'm also not sure that dried crickets are an appropriate diet- dried things lose much of their nutritional value, and idk dried crickets have the type of quality control that would ensure they're safe for an animal that doesn't naturally scavenge.

There are other frogs that make better pets. If you really want a frog I would do more research and get something else. An american green treefrog isn't a bad choice, nor are most readily available treefrogs and toads.

 

[Wayfarin]

I would release the bullfrog. It'll grow quickly if well fed. When you read about the size range of adult bullfrogs, that means they can be sexually mature when they're 3-5" long, not that they'll stop growing and not reach a larger size in captivity. Even then a 30 gallon sounds kinda small for a 4-5" bullfrog. Their habit of taking long, powerful jumps means they tend to constantly slam against the sides of an enclosure even if it's large.

I'm also not sure that dried crickets are an appropriate diet- dried things lose much of their nutritional value, and idk dried crickets have the type of quality control that would ensure they're safe for an animal that doesn't naturally scavenge.

There are other frogs that make better pets. If you really want a frog I would do more research and get something else. An american green treefrog isn't a bad choice, nor are most readily available treefrogs and toads.

That may be true, but most bullfrogs don't exceed 6 inches. 8 inches was the size of the largest bullfrog. Not an average specimen.
I'm not sure if captive frogs grow larger than wild ones.
We might be able to provide the frog with a 55-gallon tank maximum if it does exceed 5 inches.

Dried crickets would be a part of the diet, but not the whole diet. I'm not feeding the frog any live crickets because that would seal its future as a captive specimen, since there is at least a slight risk that contact with mass-produced house crickets could render the frog a possible disease risk for wild animals.
As for the safety of dried crickets, there are no rotten parts or diseases. At worst, they are not nutritionally complete. Most non-scavenging animals can still eat fresh animal protein.

I love American green tree frogs, but in my opinion they are rather higher maintenance, since they require full enclosure disinfection monthly.
I figure that bullfrogs, like fish, don't really require disinfection, since they mostly relieve themselves in the water. Water changes can substitute disinfection for many aquatic creatures.
I figure that a green frog might be better, though, since they are rather like bullfrogs, but don't exceed 4 inches. But they usually require being wild-caught in order to possess one.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

That may be true, but most bullfrogs don't exceed 6 inches. 8 inches was the size of the largest bullfrog. Not an average specimen.
I'm not sure if captive frogs grow larger than wild ones.
We might be able to provide the frog with a 55-gallon tank maximum if it does exceed 5 inches.

Dried crickets would be a part of the diet, but not the whole diet. I'm not feeding the frog any live crickets because that would seal its future as a captive specimen, since there is at least a slight risk that contact with mass-produced house crickets could render the frog a possible disease risk for wild animals.
As for the safety of dried crickets, there are no rotten parts or diseases. At worst, they are not nutritionally complete. Most non-scavenging animals can still eat fresh animal protein.

I love American green tree frogs, but in my opinion they are rather higher maintenance, since they require full enclosure disinfection monthly.
I figure that bullfrogs, like fish, don't really require disinfection, since they mostly relieve themselves in the water. Water changes can substitute disinfection for many aquatic creatures.
I figure that a green frog might be better, though, since they are rather like bullfrogs, but don't exceed 4 inches. But they usually require being wild-caught in order to possess one.

I'm not saying it'll reach 8 inches, just that it will almost certainly grow larger than it is now and even if it only reaches 4-5" or so its current enclosure will be too small.

You have it totally backwards in terms of which animal requires more maintenance. Treefrogs don't require a monthly enclosure disinfection any more than bullfrogs do- in fact, its quite easy to make a treefrog enclosure that requires basically no cleaning or maintenance just by making a bioactive enclosure with live plants that will recycle the frog's waste. It's not difficult or complicated at all- if there are plants growing in the substrate and springtails or other tiny bugs acting as decomposers, you don't have to worry about cleaning it. I've kept treefrogs in bioactive tanks for over a decade with basically no maintenance besides feeding and watering.

Even if you don't make a bioactive enclosure (no idea why you wouldn't though, it's so easy) a green treefrog enclosure will still require less maintenance because the treefrog is smaller and produces far less waste. A bullfrog produces tons of waste and its large, semiaquatic nature makes it unsuited to a fully bioactive tank, so you're gonna be doing lots of water changes. Bacteria that can harm frogs also develop far more easily in water, so aquatic frogs are typically more prone to infections in captivity than terrestrial species.

Again, I would do more research, since it sounds like what you've read about treefrog care came from a single outdated source.

 

[Wayfarin]

I'm not saying it'll reach 8 inches, just that it will almost certainly grow larger than it is now and even if it only reaches 4-5" or so its current enclosure will be too small.

You have it totally backwards in terms of which animal requires more maintenance. Treefrogs don't require a monthly enclosure disinfection any more than bullfrogs do- in fact, its quite easy to make a treefrog enclosure that requires basically no cleaning or maintenance just by making a bioactive enclosure with live plants that will recycle the frog's waste. It's not difficult or complicated at all- if there are plants growing in the substrate and springtails or other tiny bugs acting as decomposers, you don't have to worry about cleaning it. I've kept treefrogs in bioactive tanks for over a decade with basically no maintenance besides feeding and watering.

Even if you don't make a bioactive enclosure (no idea why you wouldn't though, it's so easy) a green treefrog enclosure will still require less maintenance because the treefrog is smaller and produces far less waste. A bullfrog produces tons of waste and its large, semiaquatic nature makes it unsuited to a fully bioactive tank, so you're gonna be doing lots of water changes. Bacteria that can harm frogs also develop far more easily in water, so aquatic frogs are typically more prone to infections in captivity than terrestrial species.

Again, I would do more research, since it sounds like what you've read about treefrog care came from a single outdated source.

Oooooh.
So you HAVE succeeded in creating "no-cleaning" bioactive enclosure setups!
I posting an entire thread about this.
Some people dispute the reliability or feasibility of such setups. They say that springtails only extend the length of time between the next tank cleaning.
I'm also not sure how water features work in bioactive setups.

I was obviously referring to non-bioactive set ups. The average American green tree frog online care guide says that non-bioactive enclosures need to be cleaned out monthly.

What do you think about keeping green tree frogs with green anoles? And can both species be kept in paludariums?

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Oooooh.
So you HAVE succeeded in creating "no-cleaning" bioactive enclosure setups!
I posting an entire thread about this.
Some people dispute the reliability or feasibility of such setups. They say that springtails only extend the length of time between the next tank cleaning.
I'm also not sure how water features work in bioactive setups.

I was obviously referring to non-bioactive set ups. The average American green tree frog online care guide says that non-bioactive enclosures need to be cleaned out monthly.

What do you think about keeping green tree frogs with green anoles? And can both species be kept in paludariums?

Springtails alone won't create a setup that doesn't have to be cleaned, but springtails and/or isopods + plants rooted in the substrate (pothos is a good choice for this) will since plants absorb the ammonia and other waste that would otherwise poison the frog or lead to excessive bacterial growth in an uncleaned tank. Of course this means that the tank has to have good lighting to grow the plants, which can be achieved with artificial lighting or just putting the tank in a well-lit room with windows. I feel like people debating the feasibility of bioactive setups have never seen or attempted to keep a bioactive setup. The dart frog hobby is a good place to look for information on bioactive setups since they've been normal for a long time among dart frog keepers. The same principles in dart frog setups apply to other terrestrial frogs, except that many other frogs are less sensitive than dart frogs and don't need the same attention to maintaining humidity and such.

A water feature in a bioactive setup makes things more complicated and its probably a good idea to do water changes, but if you combine occasional water changes with allowing plants to grow in the water it still shouldn't need to be deep cleaned with any regularity. Green treefrogs are a pretty terrestrial species and they don't need a water feature, a small water bowl that you change frequently works fine (even without a water bowl they'd absorb all the moisture they need from the substrate if you mist enough).

I don't know much about anole care, but I know that many people have had success keeping anoles with small treefrogs. I've read that anoles are also somewhat fragile and stress-prone, and they should have UVB lighting to be healthy, so they're overall not as easy of a pet as a green treefrog. You could probably keep them both in a paludarium, but neither will use the water feature much.

 

[Wayfarin]

Springtails alone won't create a setup that doesn't have to be cleaned, but springtails and/or isopods + plants rooted in the substrate (pothos is a good choice for this) will since plants absorb the ammonia and other waste that would otherwise poison the frog or lead to excessive bacterial growth in an uncleaned tank. Of course this means that the tank has to have good lighting to grow the plants, which can be achieved with artificial lighting or just putting the tank in a well-lit room with windows. I feel like people debating the feasibility of bioactive setups have never seen or attempted to keep a bioactive setup. The dart frog hobby is a good place to look for information on bioactive setups since they've been normal for a long time among dart frog keepers. The same principles in dart frog setups apply to other terrestrial frogs, except that many other frogs are less sensitive than dart frogs and don't need the same attention to maintaining humidity and such.

A water feature in a bioactive setup makes things more complicated and its probably a good idea to do water changes, but if you combine occasional water changes with allowing plants to grow in the water it still shouldn't need to be deep cleaned with any regularity. Green treefrogs are a pretty terrestrial species and they don't need a water feature, a small water bowl that you change frequently works fine (even without a water bowl they'd absorb all the moisture they need from the substrate if you mist enough).

I don't know much about anole care, but I know that many people have had success keeping anoles with small treefrogs. I've read that anoles are also somewhat fragile and stress-prone, and they should have UVB lighting to be healthy, so they're overall not as easy of a pet as a green treefrog. You could probably keep them both in a paludarium, but neither will use the water feature much.

Yeah, detritivores + rooted plants + good bacteria, that's what I meant. My point was, I'm surprised that these rather simple aspects can have such a huge impact on the need for tank cleanings.
I suspect that, depending on the species, some herptiles may not even need to be fed very often? I mean, probably not green tree frogs, but stuff like tiny salamanders that would subsist primarily on the springtails. I know that tiny carnivorous arthropods could certainly subsist on them.

Yeah, I figure that it's rather difficult to make both the land AND the water feature self-sustaining. I personally think that siphoning out some of the water monthly or so is better and more rewarding than having a little dish to clean out daily.
It figures that green tree frogs would be able to get enough water just from misting, rather like anoles. However, I've never heard anyone even suggest that, probably because of the risk of forgetting to mist one day, which could be tragic.

I'm very much aware that anoles need UV light. They aren't nocturnal.
I know that anoles and tree frogs don't swim much, but they CAN swim, which is necessary for them to survive in a paludarium.
The water feature would be for small fish, like least and bluefin killifish.

Any ideas for biotope plants for green tree frogs?

(The bullfrog is going to be released.)

 

[Wayfarin]

I actually think I'm going to post yet another thread about this.

 

[LapisOre]

I'd say that is much too small for a bullfrog. This list contains frogs and toads that can be kept perfectly in that size enclosure and thrive (separately, of course). Remember, to properly thrive, all of these animals need UVB and a varied diet of live insects:

• 2 Phantasmal dart frogs (Epipedobates anthonyi)
• 2 Dendrobates dart frogs (Dendrobates spp.)
• 1 Asian toad (Duttaphrynus melanostictus)
• 1 Chubby frog (Kaloula pulchra)
• 4 Fire-bellied toads (Bombina sp.)
• 4 Bumblebee walking toads (Melanophryniscus klappenbachi)
• 1 Small North American toad (Anaxyrus spp.)

Please do your research before purchasing any animal. All of these species require different care conditions, so keep that in mind.

 

[Wayfarin]

I'd say that is much too small for a bullfrog. This list contains frogs and toads that can be kept perfectly in that size enclosure and thrive (separately, of course). Remember, to properly thrive, all of these animals need UVB and a varied diet of live insects:

• 2 Phantasmal dart frogs (Epipedobates anthonyi)
• 2 Dendrobates dart frogs (Dendrobates spp.)
• 1 Asian toad (Duttaphrynus melanostictus)
• 1 Chubby frog (Kaloula pulchra)
• 4 Fire-bellied toads (Bombina sp.)
• 4 Bumblebee walking toads (Melanophryniscus klappenbachi)
• 1 Small North American toad (Anaxyrus spp.)

Please do your research before purchasing any animal. All of these species require different care conditions, so keep that in mind.

Thanks for the advice. If needed, we might be able to obtain a large enough tank for a bullfrog. 55 gallons?
I also like American green tree frogs, which are certainly small enough to live in one.
Or maybe we just won't get any frogs. We were looking into building an outdoor "frog pond" for wild frogs and newts, which would probably be the best way to enjoy wild bullfrogs and other amphibians. We could catch them occasionally to observe them, although I would prefer to be able to watch the frogs and newts in their habitat.

 

[LapisOre]

The absolute minimum for a bullfrog would probably be 75 gallons, although an enclosure of 4' x 2' x 2' would be a much better size. They'd also need UVB, as do all amphibians, ideally (except maybe the entirely fossorial or cave dwelling species). I would not suggest catching wild amphibians; you're much better off buying a captive bred animal for a reputable breeder. Tree frogs need a vertical enclosure, so the dimensions wouldn't be the same as for a terrestrial bullfrog or toad etc. If you'd like, I could invite you to a discord server with a handful of people with much more knowledge on the care and housing of frogs, other amphibians, and reptiles. It's an invertebrate-based server, so there's plenty of buggy action too!

Thanks for the advice. If needed, we might be able to obtain a large enough tank for a bullfrog. 55 gallons?
I also like American green tree frogs, which are certainly small enough to live in one.
Or maybe we just won't get any frogs. We were looking into building an outdoor "frog pond" for wild frogs and newts, which would probably be the best way to enjoy wild bullfrogs and other amphibians. We could catch them occasionally to observe them, although I would prefer to be able to watch the frogs and newts in their habitat.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

The absolute minimum for a bullfrog would probably be 75 gallons, although an enclosure of 4' x 2' x 2' would be a much better size. They'd also need UVB, as do all amphibians, ideally (except maybe the entirely fossorial or cave dwelling species). I would not suggest catching wild amphibians; you're much better off buying a captive bred animal for a reputable breeder. Tree frogs need a vertical enclosure, so the dimensions wouldn't be the same as for a terrestrial bullfrog or toad etc. If you'd like, I could invite you to a discord server with a handful of people with much more knowledge on the care and housing of frogs, other amphibians, and reptiles. It's an invertebrate-based server, so there's plenty of buggy action too!

I would not give any type of salamander UVB. With a few exceptions, salamanders avoid sunlight whenever possible and putting UVB in their enclosure would make them hide more and even harm them if they end up exposed to it for long periods.

Newts in the genus Tylotriton are among the few salamanders that can be seen walking around in the open during the day. I've read an account of a keeper who experimentally kept some Tylotriton with UVB (I assume they tried it because of the species' diurnal proclivities) and it quickly led to the newts becoming extremely stressed and a few of them dying. Maybe the UV was just too intense and they could slightly benefit from very low levels, but salamanders (and frogs) can do fine without it as long as they receive d3 supplements and the risk of telling inexperienced keepers a blanket statement like "all amphibians need uvb" outweighs the benefits imo.

 

[MasterOogway]

That tank is too small for a bullfrog, I care for a couple of them. They move across 20-30ft of linear space in a day sometimes, given an opportunity. Also, as @Salmonsaladsandwich mentioned, many/most amphibians do not need UV light, at least as far as we can tell. If anything, some frogs probably respond pretty negatively to UV and it can cause some pretty crazy skin cancers. I've seen this likely happen with Solomon Island Leaf frogs.

You should let your bullfrog go and get something that is better suited to that size tank, there are a multitude of smaller amphibians that would do well in that size footprint.

 

[LapisOre]

I would not give any type of salamander UVB. With a few exceptions, salamanders avoid sunlight whenever possible and putting UVB in their enclosure would make them hide more and even harm them if they end up exposed to it for long periods.

Newts in the genus Tylotriton are among the few salamanders that can be seen walking around in the open during the day. I've read an account of a keeper who experimentally kept some Tylotriton with UVB (I assume they tried it because of the species' diurnal proclivities) and it quickly led to the newts becoming extremely stressed and a few of them dying. Maybe the UV was just too intense and they could slightly benefit from very low levels, but salamanders (and frogs) can do fine without it as long as they receive d3 supplements and the risk of telling inexperienced keepers a blanket statement like "all amphibians need uvb" outweighs the benefits imo.

I get my care advice from people more experienced than me, and they recommend most amphibians receive UVB. When set up properly and at the right intensity, they would easily be able to avoid overexposure and any resulting harm, while still getting an adequate amount of UVB.

 

[MasterOogway]

I get my care advice from people more experienced than me, and they recommend most amphibians receive UVB. When set up properly and at the right intensity, they would easily be able to avoid overexposure and any resulting harm, while still getting an adequate amount of UVB.

It's unnecessary in most regards. And likely harmful in others. I've been keeping amphibians longer than you've been alive, and also happen to do this professionally. Does that count?

 

[Wayfarin]

The absolute minimum for a bullfrog would probably be 75 gallons, although an enclosure of 4' x 2' x 2' would be a much better size. They'd also need UVB, as do all amphibians, ideally (except maybe the entirely fossorial or cave dwelling species). I would not suggest catching wild amphibians; you're much better off buying a captive bred animal for a reputable breeder. Tree frogs need a vertical enclosure, so the dimensions wouldn't be the same as for a terrestrial bullfrog or toad etc. If you'd like, I could invite you to a discord server with a handful of people with much more knowledge on the care and housing of frogs, other amphibians, and reptiles. It's an invertebrate-based server, so there's plenty of buggy action too!

Yikes! 75 gallons? We were planning on keeping our red-eared slider in a tank that size. I don't know if we would even have room in our house if we kept both a red-eared slider and a bullfrog in large aquariums like that, although I suppose it would be possible.
Is there really any basis for that idea? Are bullfrogs really that active?

 

[Wayfarin]

That tank is too small for a bullfrog, I care for a couple of them. They move across 20-30ft of linear space in a day sometimes, given an opportunity. Also, as @Salmonsaladsandwich mentioned, many/most amphibians do not need UV light, at least as far as we can tell. If anything, some frogs probably respond pretty negatively to UV and it can cause some pretty crazy skin cancers. I've seen this likely happen with Solomon Island Leaf frogs.

You should let your bullfrog go and get something that is better suited to that size tank, there are a multitude of smaller amphibians that would do well in that size footprint.

You mean a 30-gallon tank, or a 55?

But anyways, I would have to agree about amphibians and their not requiring much UV light. Most of our native amphibian species deliberately avoid sunlight and are nocturnal. We caught the bullfrog at night.

By the way, that bullfrog is already long gone in the wild. I'm just talking about possible future keeping of bullfrogs.