Am I the only one who thinks T's need some space?

[Cbarr]

so the analogy is ridiculous in itself.

Says who YOU, so it must be then.


Xhexdx i never once stated u didnt contribute to the forum, I agree you do.


Arguing with u is pointless because it would never end, ( plus arguing is a waste of time and energy especially on the computer lol) and i dont tip toe around stuff or sugar coat stuff either I like to say whats on my mind lifes to short not to. I just erased about two paragraphs because i know u would still not see the logic. Theres a time and place for everything sugar coated or not!


Oh i didnt say give all ur t's a 50 gallon or did i say UR t's didnt have enough space but i have definitely seen it!

 

[xhexdx]

Evil, ahh, noone backed me into any corner. It's what I believe and what I have always believed. Bottom line, I can't prove they understand more than we realize, and you can't prove otherwise. So I will keep on believing that living creatures other than humans have much more feelings and thoughts than arrogant humans believe. We just don't speak the same language and can't understand what they say. And you can just go on believing that the world revolves around you and all other life is inferior to yours. And when we reach the pearly gates, we will see who is correct.

*sigh*

What part of 'primitive nervous system' and 'lack of higher brain functions' do you not comprehend?

Excuse me while I pick apart your post in the rat thread.

 

[Kathy]

I know exactly how to spell your name. Spelling a problem with you? Then maybe you should start running spell check to correct all your own errors. <edit> You don't deserve the respect to be called by your proper name.

 

[Evil Seedlet]

But that doesn't address that since you don't know how they feel, you don't know if they'd like a BIG space either. You just have no idea, by your own logic. So you should get rid of all your T's since for all you know you are terrorizing them every day with everything you do.

 

[Cbarr]

We don't know, but we can make darned good guesses based on the behavior we observe over years and years. By your logic, you have no idea that a T WOULD like a large space to live in. If we don't know if it likes a small space, we don't know it likes a big one either, and since we don't know, we probably shouldn't keep T's, right? By your logic, I have no idea if my cat likes it's ears scratched because I am a human and I just have no frigging clue as to how it feels.

But that's wrong, isn't it? I know my cat likes it because he rubs my hand when I don't pay attention to him, closes his eyes and purrs and smiles when I do. I don't know *EXACTLY* what it's like to be a cat, but I can make good guesses as to what he likes, hates and wants.

It's the same with a spider. If you give *most* 5 inch T's a 20 gallon tank, he will set up shop in one corner and rarely leave it. If you watch a T in the wild, he will dig a hole and live in it for 99% of his life as long as nothing makes him leave (like someone else mentioned), only leaving to walk a few feet away to find food now and then. From this we can gather that a T does not need gallons and gallons of space to live in.

I think someone backed you into a corner and you left the original argument to cling onto another because you knew you were wrong about the space a T needs. The only problem is that while it may be true you can't know *EXACTLY* what a T is thinking, you don't really need to in order to make it a happy home, so saying we don't know how they feel really isn't relevant to this thread.

So evil how many t's do u own, just because i tell u to jump off a bridge would u, come on think for ur self, am i saying that all that we know in the hobby is wrong NO i am not, but i can promise u that not everything we THINK we know about them is RIGHT

 

[malevolentrobot]

it seems facts, science and observation have been thrown out the window by some of you, because your compassionate soul "knows" better. how is that not impressing your own ideals on your animals and inverts?

stupid empirical evidence, it is only there to confound us! :wall:

 

[PhobeToPhile]

Evil, ahh, noone backed me into any corner. It's what I believe and what I have always believed. Bottom line, I can't prove they understand more than we realize, and you can't prove otherwise. So I will keep on believing that living creatures other than humans have much more feelings and thoughts than arrogant humans believe. We just don't speak the same language and can't understand what they say. And you can just go on believing that the world revolves around you and all other life is inferior to yours. And when we reach the pearly gates, we will see who is correct.

Quite frankly, I think the observations of others can tell us a great deal about them. Like the fact that adult females are generally not observed moving far-if at all-from the mouth of their burrow. We also have a good idea of a Tarantula's limitations regarding vision-most are probably unable to do much more than separate light from dark (aboreals may be an exception). Although I do agree humans are arrogant and we don't take into nearly enough consideration the world around us, I do believe tarantulas probably don't have what we could consider emotions.

Their nervous system is fundamentally different from our own; you could definitely say most mammals, birds, and possibly even reptiles and amphibians-and maybe even fish-have emotions. However, tarantulas-and every other invert-really aren't the same. their nervous systems are quite primitive. Hydras, anemonies and their relatives don't even really have a centralized nervous system-more of a nerve net across their bodies. Arthopods are higher up, but not by much. The only inverts which I would ascribe possible higher intelligence to are the cephlapods, and they are the exception, NOT the norm. Mind you, we can measure the complexity of an animal's nervous system, as well as see what is uses it for.

Edit: See above.
Edit 2: For my thoughts in the issue, also see below.

 

[Evil Seedlet]

So evil how many t's do u own, just because i tell u to jump off a bridge would u, come on think for ur self, am i saying that all that we know in the hobby is wrong NO i am not, but i can promise u that not everything we THINK we know about them is RIGHT

I own 8 T's. I haven't had them very long but I have read tons about them and read people's experiences here daily.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I'm not just going along with what someone else is saying. I hate when people apply human feelings to animals and always have. I am also just following Kathy's logic to it's natural conclusion.

Also, again according to your own logic, you could be totally wrong as well, so why argue either way? Just state your case and leave.

Because I believe in the scientific method, I believe we can know a LOT through observation and testing. I'm not going to throw my beliefs to the will of the universe when I have rock solid facts staring me in the face. It might be nice to think Ts have feelings, but all evidence provided so far states that they don't, and I'm not going to believe that they do just because I want to. I'm also not going to say I know I'm 100% correct, but I AM going to act based on evidence I have collected, not my wants and feelings.

Edit-- I'd also like someone to QUOTE me saying I think humans are better than any other living thing on earth. It seems that it is you few who are equating emotions with being "better." something can be my equal and have no emotions, in my opinion.

Edit 2 (lol)-- You tell me to think for myself and THEN tell me what to think. You are just using that to try to make me feel guilty about having the opinion of someone you disagree with, but then tell me to think as you do. Which would also not be thinking for myself. I've held all the opinions I posted here tonight for a long time, they just happen to agree with some people and disagree with you.

 

[Xian]

I'd also like someone to QUOTE me saying I think humans are better than any other living thing on earth.

I keep my T's in enclosures that suit me, not to big or small.

 

[Cbarr]

it seems facts, science and observation have been thrown out the window by some of you, because your compassionate soul "knows" better. how is that not impressing your own ideals on your animals and inverts?

stupid empirical evidence, it is only there to confound us! :wall:

Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing

 

[Evil Seedlet]

I didn't get that for a moment.. well played ;P

Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing

So we should just never say we know anything ever then? This comes up ALL the time in religious discussions. The answer is that we can't just sit around and wait for the next fact to come along, we have to act based on what we know right now. Just because MAYBE POSSIBLY one day in a million years we MIGHT discover T's have feelings, we shouldn't just assume they do now. Right NOW it is evident that they do not, and we should act accordingly.

Maybe one day well discover gravity wears off after a while, guess you better nail all of your stuff to the floor.

Maybe one day we'll discover that guppies are really Jesus on earth, better buy yourself a bowl and start worshiping it.

Do you see? Just because there's a maybe, it doesn't mean it's true. For now, Gravity will be there as long as something has mass, guppies are just a fish and Tarantulas don't have feelings.

 

[malevolentrobot]

Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing

honestly, i don't see any relevance to what i posted in your reply. also, if someone from NASA called and told me that they believed a meteor was in my direction, or even just hearing about multiple witnesses observing a meteor and it being on the news, of course i'd leave.

expert opinion + multiple observations + general consensus = probably good to follow until good solid, proof against is shown. if anything i think you strengthened my arguement by hitting my empirical evidence point home, don't you think?

 

[Evil Seedlet]

honestly, i don't see any relevance to what i posted in your reply. also, if someone from nasa called and told me that they believed a meteor was in my direction, as well as multiple witnesses observing it, of course i'd leave.

expert opinion + multiple observations + general consensus = probably good to follow until good solid, proof against is shown. if anything i think you strengthened my arguement by hitting my empirical evidence point home, don't you think?

You are my new best friend. :clap:

 

[xhexdx]

It seems a few people missed this...

I sure hope all these guys don't keep snakes, lizards, or any other type of animal that typically wanders acres of land on a daily basis...

 

[malevolentrobot]

You are my new best friend. :clap:

thanks.

those of you that i am arguing by the way, don't get me wrong, i want to provide the best for my animals and inverts and i really do have a little bit of compassion left in this dried up, withered, blackened chunk in my chest i call a heart, but i'm sorry, i invest that compassion by researching the hell out of how i keep them and try to mimic what conclusions i draw from my research as good as i possibly can. some of you are getting almost bleeding heart, purple prose-ish, about how people keep their inverts "improperly" and that they are "unhappy", when emotion isn't a compontent to the situation. its not the same as even your dog or cat at all.

someone in a diffferent thread said breeding is the benchmark of them being in ideal conditions, right? perhaps some people with their Ts in "cramped, confined" cages should speak up and voice their breeding sucesses then?

 

[Cbarr]

I didn't get that for a moment.. well played ;P

+1

People all I am saying is that I dont keep my adult tarantulas in a container in which all they can do is turn in circles all day if u do fine, ( Am i going to pull a kick door and run in with my HK416 and make u put ur t's in bigger containers no i am not its just a personal preference) Do tarantulas care or feel a certain way about it no they dont, but it helps me sleep better at night


Dont believe everything u see, read or hear please people we all have different minds for a reason!

It seems a few people missed this...

No I got it did u want my reply sugar coated or raw? lol

 

[Evil Seedlet]

thanks.

those of you that i am arguing by the way, don't get me wrong, i want to provide the best for my animals and inverts and i really do have a little bit of compassion left in this dried up, withered, blackened chunk in my chest i call a heart, but i'm sorry, i invest that compassion by researching the hell out of how i keep them and try to mimic what conclusions i draw from my research as good as i possibly can.

This. This is what everyone should do if they are going to keep a creature. Not base it on feeling, hopes, wishes or beliefs. And this research is done BECAUSE of compassion, not in spite of it, like some people here seem to think. If you love your creatures and want them to be as happy as you can consider something with a brain as simple as a Ts, you do the research, learn all you can, and act on it. That is true caring and compassion.

 

[xhexdx]

No I got it did u want my reply sugar coated or raw? lol

Raw, but you should know that already.

I have a reply to your last post, but I have to go for a bit so I'll respond to it and to your response to this post when I get back in a few hours.

 

[Cbarr]

Raw, but you should know that already.

I have a reply to your last post, but I have to go for a bit so I'll respond to it and to your response to this post when I get back in a few hours.

Nah man i dont have a response.

Have stuff to do.

I have said all i need to say

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

@Kathy. If tarantulas are as smart as you say they are, why don't we just let them set up their own enclosures as they please? Sure I'll take mine to walmart and let it walk down the sterilite aisle and pick which one it wants.


Tarantulas are people too