Advice needed for a rescued Avic

AssassinBug

Arachnopeon
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Sep 19, 2016
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View attachment 222826

This is my Avic's enclosure, vents at the top and front. I keep the sub dry and a water dish in there for the humidity. She seems comfortable on her bark. She is in her tube on top during the day, and sits like that (hunting mode?) at night.

Key points are good ventilation. A water dish for humidity and plants plus cork for anchor points.

And yes, she uses the front glass pane as a toilet. Avic shit happens.
This is a great enclosure! Is it one you bought, or a home build?
 

viper69

ArachnoGod
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@AssassinBug

The container most recently up'd is a bit sparse. I'd put more foliage in there if intend upon using it. One thing you should really fix is the screen top, meaning replace it with acrylic with drilled holes (assuming you are keeping the glass tank). I'd switch out of that tank personally.

Even arboreal Ts can get their tarsal claws caught in screen and thus either 1. get stuck 2. get worn out a bit due to hanging there 3. fall - maybe suffer injury/death. It's not worth the risk.

In the USA, size is measured by Diagonal Leg Span, eg tip of front left leg to end tip of right rear leg.

The bum leg, don't worry about it, unless your T's abdomen decreases in size noticeably (indicating blood loss). Ts have a valve that allows them to shunt off blood flow and amputate the leg. They really need no help from us but providing water, food and a safe home generally.
 

AssassinBug

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Hi All! I have an update and a request for advice, if you're willing. I looked for other threads that might address this issue, but I may not be using the right search terms...
My problematic Avic has been doing much better, at least until this week. She had a successful molt in February and emerged with a leg that was slightly smaller but actually functional. A few weeks later (in March), I noticed that the previously damaged leg was working fine, but the tarsus looked loosely attached (like it might fall off).
Over the last few weeks, she seemed to be avoiding putting any weight on that leg. Ten days ago, the leg fell off, but there was no discharge from the joint. She was active afterwards, but seemed to be having a bit of trouble climbing (which I attributed to the missing leg).
She hasn't eaten in several weeks, but isn't webbing (and her abdomen isn't very large). It seems like she's due for another molt, but isn't ready yet.
My real concern is that her movements seem weak, and her book lungs appear unusually red in color, and are very wet (there are even small bubbles on the surface of the lungs at times). If this was a mammal, I'd say the lungs looked inflamed. I'm hesitant to put her in an ICU container since her lung openings already appear too wet, but I have one ready just in case. She's in a smaller enclosure with better ventilation than the original tank, and has access to a water dish that I have seen her drink from in the past (see photo). I've tried to get a picture of her book lungs, but she hasn't been in a good position yet and I don't want to force her to move unless I have to.
Thanks for reading all this, I know it's a lot. I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have. I'm not sure what to do for her, but I'm willing to try anything 20170620_000524.jpg .
 

boina

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What you describe about the book lungs really sounds bad and I agree it sounds like they are inflamed. While I don't really know how to fix that - there's no way to get antibiotics in a T - I'm not a fan of the (in)famous ICU. Unless you have a severe case of dehydration the ICU tend to exacerbate the problem. The moist, stuffy environment of an ICU is pure poison for an Avic, especially for an Avic who already has a lung problem. Personally, I'd rather put her in something with as much ventilation as possible.
 

PidderPeets

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I'm completely at a loss for the issue with the book lungs (aside from the fact that it doesn't sound good and that I don't think an ICU would be the right move) but as for the casting off of the newly molted leg, she could have just decided that having a little stump leg was more trouble than it was worth. It's not unheard of for a spider to cast off a smaller leg that was already previously lost. As long as it's not still bleeding, if it decides it would rather not have the leg, it should be fine.

As for the not eating or webbing, I have a few questions. How long has it been in that enclosure? I have a rescued A. avic myself, and she started webbing up within a few days of the rehouse, so to me, that enclosure just looks like the home of a newly rehoused tarantula that hasn't gotten comfortable enough to start decorating yet. Prior to the fasting, what were you feeding it, and how often? If it's being fed too much or too often, it could just be fasting for a bit until it can eat more. It might just not be hungry. Also, if it's eating too much, it could push it closer to a molt sooner. How big did it get with it's last molt? Are you certain it's a female? A mature male tarantula would lose interest in food and settling in to a home and as it gets older, even an arboreal like a pinktoe could have trouble climbing.

Everything could be connected to the problem with the booklungs, or it could be a few separate issues all conveniently striking at the same time. I couldn't really give you a definitive answer on that. All I can do is throw out a bunch of possibilities. Hopefully someone with more experience will be able to help you further. Regardless, I hope everything works out.
 

Anoplogaster

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Continue trying to get a good picture of the lungs. I'm wondering if it's actually too moist/stuffy in there. The book lungs can be a perfect breeding ground for mold and bacteria if the enclosure doesn't have enough ventilation.
 

JoshDM020

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Mar 24, 2017
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356
No eating and trouble climbing sounds like it could be a case of mature male? Not sure what size A. avics mature at but it could be the issue. Could also just be another molt coming, i suppose. Pictures of the underside of the T showing the ends of the pedipalps would be useful. Im also not sure about the lung issues. The leg falling off again is common. The next molt (if its NOT a MM) should produce a stable leg.
 

darkness975

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Hi All! I have an update and a request for advice, if you're willing. I looked for other threads that might address this issue, but I may not be using the right search terms...
My problematic Avic has been doing much better, at least until this week. She had a successful molt in February and emerged with a leg that was slightly smaller but actually functional. A few weeks later (in March), I noticed that the previously damaged leg was working fine, but the tarsus looked loosely attached (like it might fall off).
Over the last few weeks, she seemed to be avoiding putting any weight on that leg. Ten days ago, the leg fell off, but there was no discharge from the joint. She was active afterwards, but seemed to be having a bit of trouble climbing (which I attributed to the missing leg).
She hasn't eaten in several weeks, but isn't webbing (and her abdomen isn't very large). It seems like she's due for another molt, but isn't ready yet.
My real concern is that her movements seem weak, and her book lungs appear unusually red in color, and are very wet (there are even small bubbles on the surface of the lungs at times). If this was a mammal, I'd say the lungs looked inflamed. I'm hesitant to put her in an ICU container since her lung openings already appear too wet, but I have one ready just in case. She's in a smaller enclosure with better ventilation than the original tank, and has access to a water dish that I have seen her drink from in the past (see photo). I've tried to get a picture of her book lungs, but she hasn't been in a good position yet and I don't want to force her to move unless I have to.
Thanks for reading all this, I know it's a lot. I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have. I'm not sure what to do for her, but I'm willing to try anything View attachment 243755 .
Do you have any images of the Spider itself?
 

AssassinBug

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Thank you for all the replies!
I believe it's a female based on an examination of her molt (by my local T breeder). That could be wrong, though.

The T had been in that enclosure since before her molt. She only started webbing a week before molting, and then tore down the web completely afterwards. Is there natural variation in webbing behavior?

No luck on a pedipalps picture, but I'll keep trying. She did show me the ventral side of her abdomen this morning though. The book lungs look drier and less inflamed, but they still don't look right to me. I've also never seen her hold her abdomen like this before. Any thoughts?
 

Attachments

Ghost56

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Thank you for all the replies!
I believe it's a female based on an examination of her molt (by my local T breeder). That could be wrong, though.

The T had been in that enclosure since before her molt. She only started webbing a week before molting, and then tore down the web completely afterwards. Is there natural variation in webbing behavior?

No luck on a pedipalps picture, but I'll keep trying. She did show me the ventral side of her abdomen this morning though. The book lungs look drier and less inflamed, but they still don't look right to me. I've also never seen her hold her abdomen like this before. Any thoughts?
That's a defensive posture, and I would say male from that ventral pic. I'm also betting on mature male. Book lungs do look odd though.
 

PidderPeets

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Thank you for all the replies!
I believe it's a female based on an examination of her molt (by my local T breeder). That could be wrong, though.

The T had been in that enclosure since before her molt. She only started webbing a week before molting, and then tore down the web completely afterwards. Is there natural variation in webbing behavior?

No luck on a pedipalps picture, but I'll keep trying. She did show me the ventral side of her abdomen this morning though. The book lungs look drier and less inflamed, but they still don't look right to me. I've also never seen her hold her abdomen like this before. Any thoughts?
I'm by all means not confident in my ability to sex tarantulas, but I will at least say that the area looks different from my avic that multiple people on here thought looked female. Maybe try to get a better picture of the ventral side and post it in the tarantula sexing section to get some more opinions? From what I've read, I'm under the impression A. avics get about 4 - 5 inches (someone correct me if I'm wrong please), so if yours is in fact a male, that last molt could have been an ultimate molt. That would explain all the behavioral stuff, just not the book lungs. As for them, while they do look very strange, I would think that if they seem to be drying up and improving on their own, then that should be well enough. Maybe just make sure it's not too humid in the enclosure and that there isn't any traces of old food or mold. If there is, then change it out for fresh stuff.
 

mconnachan

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She did show me the ventral side of her abdomen this morning though. The book lungs look drier and less inflamed, but they still don't look right to me. I've also never seen her hold her abdomen like this before. Any thoughts?
Ouch...that looks painful for the Avic, no wonder it's holding it's abdomen up, away from any contact, looks serious, but I'm no expert, @Nightstalker47 ,@14pokies ,@EulersK can you guys have a look, doesn't look good to me, perhaps you can shed some light on the situation......
 
Last edited:

boina

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I really don't know what's going on with the lungs, but the way she holds her abdomen might have something to do with general weakness - the abdomen is hanging downwards, because the spider is too weak to keep it in the "right" position. I've heard about something like that from some Cupiennius (true spiders), but I think it may apply to other arboreals, too. I'm not sure, though, but from the pics I'd say it doesn't look good. I'm sorry that I'm not more helpful in a more positive way.
 

darkness975

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A mature male is a possibility.

I do agree with others here that the book lungs do not look good at all. I have never seen that in person but it does look inflamed and painful. :(
 

keks

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A mature male is a possibility.

I do agree with others here that the book lungs do not look good at all. I have never seen that in person but it does look inflamed and painful. :(
Are invertebrates able to feel pain after all? I always was (or have been?)
told that they can't feel pain because of their simple nervous system.
 

darkness975

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Are invertebrates able to feel pain after all? I always was told that they can't feel pain because of their simple nervous system.
It "looks" painful. I cannot comment on how ( or if ) it feels to the Spider, I can only comment on how it looks aesthetically from a human perspective.

Hoffentlich hab' ich klar erklaert! :)
 

keks

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It "looks" painful. I cannot comment on how ( or if ) it feels to the Spider, I can only comment on how it looks aesthetically from a human perspective.

Hoffentlich hab' ich klar erklaert! :)
Ja, danke, du hast es gut erklärt :).
It would be really very interesting to me, if they can feel pain. When not, why are they changing their behavior in such cases?

It's a pity, that the OP rescued this Avic and now it is apparently sick :(.
 

Ungoliant

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Are invertebrates able to feel pain after all? I always was (or have been?)
told that they can't feel pain because of their simple nervous system.
An overview of pain in invertebrates.

Wikipedia said:
Criteria that may indicate a potential for experiencing pain include:
  1. Has a suitable nervous system and receptors
  2. Physiological changes to noxious stimuli
  3. Displays protective motor reactions that might include reduced use of an affected area such as limping, rubbing, holding or autotomy
  4. Has opioid receptors and shows reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics
  5. Shows trade-offs between stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements
  6. Shows avoidance learning
  7. Exhibits high cognitive ability and sentience
 
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