"Abused" Caribena Versicolor adoption

[Chroma Trigger]

Hello everyone!

First of all, sorry for the long story - don't want to leave out any details. I am new to the hobby of keeping Ts, but have been lurking and playing with the thought for a long time. I bought a B. Smithi (Ex. Annitha) sling at the start of November and a GBB sling at the end of the same month. Both are doing well, the Brachy burrows and the GBB built a web castle. As addicting as the hobby is, I wanted something bigger, while raising those slings.

I ended up buying a C. Versicolor on an online platform and took it home just before Christmas (including the terrarium). As the previous owner never sexed a molt, I consulted the "Epiandrous fusillae sexing" part of the forum and it highly likely a female. She was born in September 2015, making her a little over 4 years old. The enclosure was quite dirty (mostly uncleaned poop) and the seller left 3 big crickets inside. I didn't think much of this and the T seemed lively. While riding terrarium-shotgun in my car, she even crawled down and drank from the water dish. The next day, I removed 2 of the crickets, as the Versi did not eat any during the night. One more day and I took the third one out as well. The enclosure was quite naturalistic, with branches, fake leaves and lots of moss patches. However, under these patches, I discovered a literal graveyard of crickets, previous molts and other feeder husks on the rocky substrate...

Yesterday I rehoused the T, meaning I took it out of the enclosure, thoroughly cleaned the terrarium, filled in a more suitable substrate, added a some fake flora and put it back inside. Obviously I had to destroy the webbing, but I kept her big cork bark and placed it in a similar way to its previous position. The T was incredibly bolty during the rehouse, but I managed to keep it safe at all times. In the night from yesterday to today, she only pooped against a wall (thanks), but during the day it already started to build a new web at the same place that the previous one was.

In my opinion, I would wait for a few days for her to settle back in, let her build her new home and think about feeding afterwards. What would you recommend? Should I toss in a medium cricket as a test? Thing is, I have no clue when she last ate and that feeder graveyard left quite the mark. I wouldn't suspect that she is in premolt, as she bolted like hell yesterday and also normally roams around the enclosure at night (previous owner couldn't tell me when the last molt was). Please let me know your thoughts! Thanks a lot!

 

[Ungoliant]

In my opinion, I would wait for a few days for her to settle back in, let her build her new home and think about feeding afterwards. What would you recommend? Should I toss in a medium cricket as a test?

You can try to feed if you want.

Can you post pics of the entire enclosure?

 

[Theneil]

T. seems fine to me. Not crazy skinny or anything. If it went a week (or several) without food it would be inconsequential. You can try to feed now or you can wait. either choice is fine, so just go with whichever you prefer.

 

[cold blood]

I wouldn't call it abused...lol...just a bit dirty

My guess is a recent molt, and as there were crickets in there not being eaten, I would assume not hungry or not yet ready to eat.....either way, its not molting soon, and because when they do molt, its basically in a cacoon and elevated, they aren't in the danger of roaming crickets like most species. So you can actually just drop in a cricket and leave it....just remove it if it dies of course (unlike the previous owner).

 

[Chroma Trigger]

@Ungoliant @Theneil

Thanks for your inputs! I made 2 more pics of the enclosure, with front and top view. The only hiding place for feeders is now inside the cork bark, behind the leaves, or under the future webbing. Cork bark and water dish are from the previous setup.

The quick webbing positively surprised me and I wouldn't want to disturb that process with a feeder. Depending on how the web building continues, I might toss something in very soon

@cold blood Yeah, abused is a strong word in hindsight... also don't want to accuse the previous owner of anything. He seemed quite caring too, but the enclosure was too packed for him to see the dead feeders. Thanks for your input, I'll drop a cricket in soon!

 

[boina]

@Ungoliant @Theneil

Thanks for your inputs! I made 2 more pics of the enclosure, with front and top view. The only hiding place for feeders is now inside the cork bark, behind the leaves, or under the future webbing. Cork bark and water dish are from the previous setup.

The quick webbing positively surprised me and I wouldn't want to disturb that process with a feeder. Depending on how the web building continues, I might toss something in very soon

@cold blood Yeah, abused is a strong word in hindsight... also don't want to accuse the previous owner of anything. He seemed quite caring too, but the enclosure was too packed for him to see the dead feeders. Thanks for your input, I'll drop a cricket in soon!

I knew you were European when I saw the enclosure - I've a few of those glass terras, too . Anyway, while the enclosure is generally nice your Avic could do with more clutter and fake leaves around the upper half of the enclosure. Avics really only live high up, so that's where they need structures to walk on and web in. It's such a nice, big enclosure - why leave most of it bare and unusable for the spider?

 

[Crone Returns]

But is there enough cross ventilation for the T?

 

[Chroma Trigger]

@boina Haha, I guess these glass terrariums are a dead giveaway ^^. Next week, I will add some roots / wood sticks on the right side as additional, possible anchor points. The ground is very bare atm, so I can monitor those feeders more easily. I dropped a cricket in yesterday and it landed in the webbing right next to the T. This morning i spotted it roaming around near the water dish in the opposite direction... Hope she regains her appetite soon. I'll just continue to monitor her and her webbing process.

@Crone Returns There is a big area with holes on the top, as well as some smaller ones on the bottom. I monitored the humidity within the enclosure and moisture dissipates very quickly. After covering 1/3 of the top air holes, ventilation and humidity seem to be in a good balance. My other enclosures usually have holes in the front and on top.

 

[boina]

@boina Haha, I guess these glass terrariums are a dead giveaway ^^. Next week, I will add some roots / wood sticks on the right side as additional, possible anchor points. The ground is very bare atm, so I can monitor those feeders more easily. I dropped a cricket in yesterday and it landed in the webbing right next to the T. This morning i spotted it roaming around near the water dish in the opposite direction... Hope she regains her appetite soon. I'll just continue to monitor her and her webbing process.

@Crone Returns There is a big area with holes on the top, as well as some smaller ones on the bottom. I monitored the humidity within the enclosure and moisture dissipates very quickly. After covering 1/3 of the top air holes, ventilation and humidity seem to be in a good balance. My other enclosures usually have holes in the front and on top.

Uh-oh. There's a huge red flag here: Avics do NOT need humidity, ever, at all. Do NOT EVER cover any ventilation for Avics. The more ventilation the better. Humidity is inconsequential. They will do exceedingly well in low humidity but die as soon as it get's stuffy.

Again: Avics need to be kept on dry substrate with as much ventilation as you can get. This humidity nonsense, that especially the German speaking world is so fond of, is the no. 1 Avic killer.

 

[Chroma Trigger]

Uh-oh. There's a huge red flag here: Avics do NOT need humidity, ever, at all. Do NOT EVER cover any ventilation for Avics. The more ventilation the better. Humidity is inconsequential. They will do exceedingly well in low humidity but die as soon as it get's stuffy.

Again: Avics need to be kept on dry substrate with as much ventilation as you can get. This humidity nonsense, that especially the German speaking world is so fond of, is the no. 1 Avic killer.

Sorry, my talk about humidity seemed a bit extreme ^^. I do not mist the enclosure or anything, so nothing in the 80% range. There's just the water dish on the pic that "regulates" humidity and if the water level sinks too low, I fill it back up. Before I covered some of the holes with a sheet, humidity sometimes dropped to 30%, which seemed quite low to me (I heard of molting issues, if Ts are kept too dry). Now its at a stable 50% - 60%. I don't try to be a temp and moisture fanatic, but around 24° C and 60% humidity seems to work for most of my Ts

 

[Andrea82]

But is there enough cross ventilation for the T?

Yes. These glass terrariums come with a wide strip of holes at the top and one near the bottom on the front. They're metal strips with holes in them

 

[boina]

Sorry, my talk about humidity seemed a bit extreme ^^. I do not mist the enclosure or anything, so nothing in the 80% range. There's just the water dish on the pic that "regulates" humidity and if the water level sinks too low, I fill it back up. Before I covered some of the holes with a sheet, humidity sometimes dropped to 30%, which seemed quite low to me (I heard of molting issues, if Ts are kept too dry). Now its at a stable 50% - 60%. I don't try to be a temp and moisture fanatic, but around 24° C and 60% humidity seems to work for most of my Ts

Humidity is inconsequential for molting - that's a myth. Yes, spiders need extra moisture during a molt, but from drinking. Their exoskeleton is water resistant, so moisture in the air (i.e. humidity) doesn't matter. Avics can live perfectly fine at 30% humidity, but stagnant air can kill them fast - one of the biggest reasons they have the lable "fragile" attached to them.

The only reason for juvenile and adult tarantulas to need humidity lies in their book lungs. Those need to be kept moist, otherwise the spider will suffocate. Tarantulas from arid regions can regulate the air flow (and thereby loss of humidity) by tightening or widening the opening to the book lungs. Very large tarantulas, like Theraphosa and some other large species, don't have that luxury because to supply their large bodies with enough oxygen their book lungs need to run at maximum capacity at all times. That's why they need moist substrate. Since they are terrestrial spiders their book lungs are directly above that moist substrate and profit from the humid micro-environment in that 1 cm above the substrate.

Arboreals need to be able to deal with dry conditions since even in humid climates wind can dry out their hiding places high above the ground pretty quickly and pretty thoroughly before the next rain hits. Avics have been proven to be highly resitant to dry conditions. On the other hand, in humid air, especially when it's stagnating, bacteria can grow very well and if one pathogenic bacterium is in the mix your Avic is done for. They seem to have very little resistance.

It's your choice. Personally I like to err on the side of caution.

 

[Chroma Trigger]

@boina You are a well of information! Thank you for taking the time to explain in such great detail! I guess that also explains why there are no giant arboreals? The air is now circulating unhindered and if I have to fill up the water dish more often, then that's what I'll do ;-)

@cold blood @Theneil The C. Versicolor just molted today, so the "mystery" of the uneaten crickets is solved. Water dish is full and I cannot wait to see her eat for the first time, after her fangs are hardened

 

[cold blood]

detail! I guess that also explains why there are no giant arboreals

There are plenty of huge arboreals.

pile of legs.

• cold blood
• Nov 3, 2017
• 2

freshly molted ornata, over 8" now.

there is a spider under that pile of legs.

 

[Chroma Trigger]

There are plenty of huge arboreals.

Oh, the mature P. Ornata I've seen seemed a lot smaller... but as a beginner, I did most of my research on Brachys and the GBB / C. Versicolor before the purchase. I did think that arboreals were generally smaller, is that true? Definitely going to read up on that topic

 

[cold blood]

Oh, the mature P. Ornata I've seen seemed a lot smaller... but as a beginner, I did most of my research on Brachys and the GBB / C. Versicolor before the purchase. I did think that arboreals were generally smaller, is that true? Definitely going to read up on that topic

There are a few Avic species that get to the 7" range...P. cambridgei is over 7", most pokies get to at least 7" (2 or three are smaller) and a couple like ornata and rufialata get positively huge....Many Asian arboreals, like O. violaceopes (among others) easily exceed 7" and can approach 9"....true face hugger territory.

 

[Feral]

Sorry, my talk about humidity seemed a bit extreme ^^. I do not mist the enclosure or anything, so nothing in the 80% range. There's just the water dish on the pic that "regulates" humidity and if the water level sinks too low, I fill it back up. Before I covered some of the holes with a sheet, humidity sometimes dropped to 30%, which seemed quite low to me (I heard of molting issues, if Ts are kept too dry). Now its at a stable 50% - 60%. I don't try to be a temp and moisture fanatic, but around 24° C and 60% humidity seems to work for most of my Ts

Because I see you mentioned you have a GBB...
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet, so in case you didn't know, GBBs (like Avicularia) should be kept with plenty of airflow and bone dry enclosure/substrate with a water dish. They, too, come from an environment with humid air, but a ton of air flow (even my nature's standards), so have an intolerance for moisture within an enclosed space. Too stuffy. I'm not sure how you're keeping yours, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Humidity is inconsequential for molting - that's a myth. Yes, spiders need extra moisture during a molt, but from drinking. Their exoskeleton is water resistant, so moisture in the air (i.e. humidity) doesn't matter.

The only reason for juvenile and adult tarantulas to need humidity lies in their book lungs.

I disagree here. As far as I can discern, that is incorrect. I got curious about the effects of atmospheric moisture/ humidity a while back because things didn't make sense to me, science-wise or logically, despite everyone touting to totally disregard humidity and "tarantulas aren't not reptiles" and their exoskeleton is impermeable to moisture so only hydration through drinking and booklung moisture maintenance matter or effect them at all, and so forth. So I did some researching and thinking. Everything I've found so far disagrees with what you and others have said. Do you have studies to share that support your assertions? I'd be interested to read them.

Now given, I totally agree that humidity, or trying to determine or control it, should not factor into general husbandry (especially when explaining things to beginners) in most all, if not all, situations. I believe any discussion of humidity usually makes things unnecessarily complicated. Instead, I think discussions of husbandry should be concerned with the easy to understand and gauge and and control: substrate moisture and water dish availability. We control humidity via substrate moisture and water dish availability, so why not cut out the confusing middle man, right?

But...
As far as I can tell, saying that humidity is doesn't affect spiders or saying that humidity is inconsequential for hydration, and therefore molting, is incorrect. Water exchange happens through the book lungs, and it also happens through the exoskeleton. (Contrary to popular hobbyist belief.) Yes, the exoskeleton is water resistant, but it is not water proof. The exoskeleton's properties, like the waxy cuticle, are designed to minimize excessive water exchange, but it does not prevent water exchange. Additionally, the exoskeleton itself has its own changing hydration, can become more or less moist/dry. (We can see this ourselves when we rehydrate old molts in order to sex them.) It also seems to have its own changing permeability; It has been stated that the the permeability of the cuticle is variable, depending on the current climate, and evolved as a consequence of changing seasonal environmental conditions. Furthermore, not as much of the total amount of water exchange happens through the book lungs as hobbyist's think; A surprising amount of water is exchanged through the exoskeleton. For example in a study of P. parvula, it was found that, of the total amount of evaporative water loss, only 60% was through the book lungs. That's 40% of evaporative water loss through the rest of the exoskeleton... a substantial amount!

All of these things affect hydration, of course, and hydration affects molting. If you have any contridicting studies, I'd be very interested to read them. I think we, as a hobby, need to be careful of blindly spreading misinformation.

Here is a great review paper that discuss hydration and water balance characteristics (among other interesting things) in a number of Chilean spiders, including tarantulas like G. rosea and P. parvula:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4531227/#!po=39.1892

 

[Chroma Trigger]

Because I see you mentioned you have a GBB...
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet, so in case you didn't know, GBBs (like Avicularia) should be kept with plenty of airflow and bone dry enclosure/substrate with a water dish. They, too, come from an environment with humid air, but a ton of air flow (even my nature's standards), so have an intolerance for moisture within an enclosed space. Too stuffy. I'm not sure how you're keeping yours, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

I've always known that I wanted a GBB, so before I bought any T, I spent a lot of time watching videos and reading forum posts on here. Thankfully, most information nowadays points towards the dry substrate and the importance of the airflow. That's also how I'm keeping my GBB, with lots of large holes at the front and top. Thanks for the information!

 

[boina]

Because I see you mentioned you have a GBB...
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet, so in case you didn't know, GBBs (like Avicularia) should be kept with plenty of airflow and bone dry enclosure/substrate with a water dish. They, too, come from an environment with humid air, but a ton of air flow (even my nature's standards), so have an intolerance for moisture within an enclosed space. Too stuffy. I'm not sure how you're keeping yours, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.





I disagree here. As far as I can discern, that is incorrect. I got curious about the effects of atmospheric moisture/ humidity a while back because things didn't make sense to me, science-wise or logically, despite everyone touting to totally disregard humidity and "tarantulas aren't not reptiles" and their exoskeleton is impermeable to moisture so only hydration through drinking and booklung moisture maintenance matter or effect them at all, and so forth. So I did some researching and thinking. Everything I've found so far disagrees with what you and others have said. Do you have studies to share that support your assertions? I'd be interested to read them.

Now given, I totally agree that humidity, or trying to determine or control it, should not factor into general husbandry (especially when explaining things to beginners) in most all, if not all, situations. I believe any discussion of humidity usually makes things unnecessarily complicated. Instead, I think discussions of husbandry should be concerned with the easy to understand and gauge and and control: substrate moisture and water dish availability. We control humidity via substrate moisture and water dish availability, so why not cut out the confusing middle man, right?

But...
As far as I can tell, saying that humidity is doesn't affect spiders or saying that humidity is inconsequential for hydration, and therefore molting, is incorrect. Water exchange happens through the book lungs, and it also happens through the exoskeleton. (Contrary to popular hobbyist belief.) Yes, the exoskeleton is water resistant, but it is not water proof. The exoskeleton's properties, like the waxy cuticle, are designed to minimize excessive water exchange, but it does not prevent water exchange. Additionally, the exoskeleton itself has its own changing hydration, can become more or less moist/dry. (We can see this ourselves when we rehydrate old molts in order to sex them.) It also seems to have its own changing permeability; It has been stated that the the permeability of the cuticle is variable, depending on the current climate, and evolved as a consequence of changing seasonal environmental conditions. Furthermore, not as much of the total amount of water exchange happens through the book lungs as hobbyist's think; A surprising amount of water is exchanged through the exoskeleton. For example in a study of P. parvula, it was found that, of the total amount of evaporative water loss, only 60% was through the book lungs. That's 40% of evaporative water loss through the rest of the exoskeleton... a substantial amount!

All of these things affect hydration, of course, and hydration affects molting. If you have any contridicting studies, I'd be very interested to read them. I think we, as a hobby, need to be careful of blindly spreading misinformation.

Here is a great review paper that discuss hydration and water balance characteristics (among other interesting things) in a number of Chilean spiders, including tarantulas like G. rosea and P. parvula:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4531227/#!po=39.1892

You have an interesting way of selective reading. Read the P. parvula study in total: it was done in highly artificial circumstances by decreasing humidity to nearly 0 to allow for better measurement and increasing temps to 40°C, putting huge stress on the exoskeleton. Yes, they can lose water through the exoskeleton but in more realistic circumstances the main water loss will be through the book lungs. As the article you cited stated just a few lines lower:

"For example, in the earthworm, which spends its entire life in the dry soil environment, controlling the spiracles is very important. If the spiracles are open water loss immediately increases by several times and can cause death."

Even in an earthworm that doesn't have a such a water resistant cuticle spiracles are the main factor of water loss by several times. I admit, things are not black and white - water loss through the cuticle is possible, after all - but that's nothing to worry about in captivity (except if you live in a desert). You can't just take one measurement in extreme circumstances as an average when there's evidence pointing to this being on one end of the spectrum rather than the norm.

Unfortunately I don't like walls of text and tend to sometimes simplify my answers, maybe in this case too much.

Btw., why do you always have to include some subtle insults instead of simply asking if I can back up or explain my claims?

"I think we, as a hobby, need to be careful of blindly spreading misinformation."

 

[Feral]

Btw., why do you always have to include some subtle insults instead of simply asking if I can back up or explain my claims?
"I think we, as a hobby, need to be careful of blindly spreading misinformation."

(I'll respond to the animal related stuff in a bit when I have some time to sit down later, but I wanted to clear the air first about any perceived insult or negativity.)

I don't want you, or anyone, to think I'm insulting them, subtlety or otherwise. I really believe in trying our best to treat each other compassionately, just as a general life principle, and I'd hate to unintentionally be the cause of anyone's hurt feelings.

If you notice the context of the sentence, specifically the sentence directly before it, I think my intention there will be clear. Imagine the word "because" between those two sentences and my intention becomes even more clear:

If you have any contridicting studies, I'd be very interested to read them. I think we, as a hobby, need to be careful of blindly spreading misinformation.

When I wrote that, I was meaning that if there is contradictory evidence please show me because I (as in I personally) don't want to be spreading misinformation. And I meant that I think it's a huge problem in the hobby, and I personally definitely don't want to contribute to it, so if I'm wrong I want evidence so I can correct what I say. That was my meaning there.

I basically said "If you can prove me wrong, please do, because I don't want to be giving out bad info because bad info is bad." That is not an insult, subtle or otherwise.

Please know that there was no offense intended there, at all. I never want to be offensive or insulting, subtly or otherwise, and I apologize for any unintentional insult you perceived.

---
I will add, though... how could being said to spread misinformation be offensive? Or even how could being said to be outright wrong be offensive? That is not a judgement on you as a person, it's a judgment of information. Even if I blatantly, outright say that you, @boina, specifically were spreading misinformation, that couldn't be offensive, definitely not if your information is, actually, incorrect. It has nothing to do with any judgement on you as a person, this is solely about the accuracy of facts and information.
Questioning what someone says isn't offensive.
Disagreeing with what someone says isn't offensive.
Proving what a person says is incorrect/mistaken isn't offensive.
Saying (with evidence) someone is spreading misinformation/incorrect things is not offensive. (And it's certainty not offensive to say spreading misinformation is bad and I don't want to do it, as I said in my post, but that's a separate point that I covered above, and I digress.)

It has nothing to do with you as a person; there is absolutely no judgement, positive or negative, placed on you as a person. I'm sure you're great. It's entirely about the facts and their accuracy. It's academic, not personal. We, as a hobby (which is everyone including you and me) have to stop being personally offended when someone questions our info or disagrees with our info or says our information is wrong. (It seems especially prevalent here on AB, in my opinion.)
I wasn't intentionally directing it at any one individual (other than myself) in the last post, but I'll say it intentionally now- We all have to do our best to stop spreading misinformation, and that includes @boina or me or whoever is doing it, no matter who they are.

(But yeah, I just wanted to clear up any perceived negativity and try to dispel any ill will. But yes, I'll respond to the sciency stuff in a bit when I have some quiet time and can think more clearly.)