A. moderatum burrow

Matt W

Arachnopeon
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Nov 11, 2023
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New spider, a male A-mod 1.5-2". I made a nice enclosure setup for him and he immediately burrowed down to the bottom. No problem, but I'm curious if I should give him more substrate depth. Currently, he's got about 3".

IMG_20231130_060013732.jpg
 

Arachnophobphile

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New spider, a male A-mod 1.5-2". I made a nice enclosure setup for him and he immediately burrowed down to the bottom. No problem, but I'm curious if I should give him more substrate depth. Currently, he's got about 3".

View attachment 461884
Excellent choice in a tarantula this is one of the most stunning Aphonopelma's next to a mooreae.

Your enclosure looks perfect. Sub depth is just right.

I myself have located the only captive bred slings I can find. I do not know if the parents were sac mates or not as they were imported from Europe.

It is extremely difficult to get a fertile sac from a female in captivity from A. moderatum.

In this case majority of what's being sold in the U.S. are wild caught. It be best to breed two wild caught moderatums for clean genes.

I am looking to do this but we are talking an Aphonopelma genus so I'll probably be dead before I can ever attempt it.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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I myself have located the only captive bred slings I can find. I do not know if the parents were sac mates or not as they were imported from Europe.

It is extremely difficult to get a fertile sac from a female in captivity from A. moderatum.

In this case majority of what's being sold in the U.S. are wild caught. It be best to breed two wild caught moderatums for clean genes.

I am looking to do this but we are talking an Aphonopelma genus so I'll probably be dead before I can ever attempt it.
I'm confused by this. You are an American located in Illinois who bought captive bred spiderlings of a species found in south Texas from a European import?
 

Smotzer

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Depth is fine, and how ever long it stays down there is equally fine.
 

Arachnophobphile

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I'm confused by this. You are an American located in Illinois who bought captive bred spiderlings of a species found in south Texas from a European import?
No, not yet, I only found one U.S. vendor selling the only captive bred A. moderatum slings out of all the other vendors that are offering them. They hold import license and got their stock from Europe.

The vendors selling 2 inches and up of moderatum and confirmed females are actually wild caught. I've contacted most of them. Joe Rossi has one but haven't talked to him yet. Some actually reply and some do not. I also have discovered that it is extremely difficult to get a fertile sac in captivity which is why you don't see slings offered as much as the other Aphonopelma like chalcodes and hentzi.

There was a member here that reported seeing people actively field collecting them in the Rio Grande as he lives in that area. Many of those being collected for the European market.

I'm in no way going down there to collect my own for several reasons.

If you know of someone selling slings, as those are very hard to find instead of juveniles and sub-adults I would love to know as I will be interested in what they have.
 
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Matt W

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Nov 11, 2023
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If you know of someone selling slings, as those are very hard to find instead of juveniles and sub-adults I would love to know as I will be interested in what they have.
I got mine from Jamie's, and she has 1.5" sexed juveniles, but I have no idea if they're wild caught or not. The females are pretty pricey.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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No, not yet, I only found one U.S. vendor selling the only captive bred A. moderatum slings out of all the other vendors that are offering them. They hold import license and got their stock from Europe.

The vendors selling 2 inches and up of moderatum and confirmed females are actually wild caught. I've contacted most of them. Joe Rossi has one but haven't talked to him yet. Some actually reply and some do not. I also have discovered that it is extremely difficult to get a fertile sac in captivity which is why you don't see slings offered as much as the other Aphonopelma like chalcodes and hentzi.

There was a member here that reported seeing people actively field collecting them in the Rio Grande as he lives in that area. Many of those being collected for the European market.

I'm in no way going down there to collect my own for several reasons.

If you know of someone selling slings, as those are very hard to find instead of juveniles and sub-adults I would love to know as I will be interested in what they have.
All of that blows my mind. Let me repeat it back to you in my own words and you tell me if I am reading too much into this or making too many assumptions.

There are Americans going down to the Rio Grande River, which is the Texas-Mexico border, and collecting Aphonopelma moderatum. I would assume the collecting sites would be from the Texas side of the border. The wild caught tarantulas are then sold and exported to one or more European countries where they are captive bred (or maybe the wild caught females are dropping sacs in captivity?). Then the Europeans who have them from the American exports are selling the captive born offspring to at least one American seller who imports them and resells them to other Americans.

Did I get that correct? I'm not sure if you mean the one U.S. vendor got their captive born A. moderatum spiderlings from European stock or if you are just saying they get their stock from Europe in general. I don't know what the connection is between this U.S. seller having A. moderatum spiderlings and having an import license and getting their stock from Europe.
 

Ultum4Spiderz

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All of that blows my mind. Let me repeat it back to you in my own words and you tell me if I am reading too much into this or making too many assumptions.

There are Americans going down to the Rio Grande River, which is the Texas-Mexico border, and collecting Aphonopelma moderatum. I would assume the collecting sites would be from the Texas side of the border. The wild caught tarantulas are then sold and exported to one or more European countries where they are captive bred (or maybe the wild caught females are dropping sacs in captivity?). Then the Europeans who have them from the American exports are selling the captive born offspring to at least one American seller who imports them and resells them to other Americans.

Did I get that correct? I'm not sure if you mean the one U.S. vendor got their captive born A. moderatum spiderlings from European stock or if you are just saying they get their stock from Europe in general. I don't know what the connection is between this U.S. seller having A. moderatum spiderlings and having an import license and getting their stock from Europe.
That’s some long distance travel, hope they don’t run out of native specimens could go extinct.
 

Arachnophobphile

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Messages
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All of that blows my mind. Let me repeat it back to you in my own words and you tell me if I am reading too much into this or making too many assumptions.

There are Americans going down to the Rio Grande River, which is the Texas-Mexico border, and collecting Aphonopelma moderatum. I would assume the collecting sites would be from the Texas side of the border. The wild caught tarantulas are then sold and exported to one or more European countries where they are captive bred (or maybe the wild caught females are dropping sacs in captivity?). Then the Europeans who have them from the American exports are selling the captive born offspring to at least one American seller who imports them and resells them to other Americans.

Did I get that correct? I'm not sure if you mean the one U.S. vendor got their captive born A. moderatum spiderlings from European stock or if you are just saying they get their stock from Europe in general. I don't know what the connection is between this U.S. seller having A. moderatum spiderlings and having an import license and getting their stock from Europe.
Yes, at least one vendor that replied to me said their stock came from Europe including the .33 of an inch A. moderatum slings they received. That vendor is the only one so far out of the many I already checked that has slings of that size and captive bred, (if they are really captive bred).

The other vendors that I contacted that have moderatum for sale are all juveniles and sub-adults up to 3 inches and are wild caught especially the females.

As far as I know and I've been at this for a little while, someone in Europe had success with getting a fertile sac. That....or what I really believe is a wild caught one was gravid and dropped a fertile sac.

Either way I cannot find captive bred slings, bred here in the U S. from anyone.

Then there are two issues:
1. These so-called captive bred slings from this one vendor are they really captive bred?

2. Any slings from anyone else, (and I cannot find anyone else selling them) would be bred from wild caught parents which bring other problems.

And yes there are people field collecting them and sending some back to Europe. That part is correct and is actively going on. I know from the Texas side as a member here witnessed it in person.

UPDATE:
I found one person mentioning what has been happening in the Rio Grande in the range of A. moderatum. This one is from 2009.

 
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fcat

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looks perfectly fine to me
I read this in quick succession forgetting the original content, so my first impression was that this was a response to the rio grande smuggling to EU to sell them cheaper than we do, then sell them to us so we can pay even more for them. It did make me chortle.

@Matt W I would hope I have a brother to yours, but my buddy might be too large to be a sac mate, and now I'm wondering if I/we have wild caught. I got mine from Jamie's earlier this year. I'd guess he's around 2.5". That's a nice looking burrow yours has made already.

I have a female. I knew the odds were not great but they sound basically impossible if they are just importing gravid females. Sad.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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Yes, at least one vendor that replied to me said their stock came from Europe including the .33 of an inch A. moderatum slings they received. That vendor is the only one so far out of the many I already checked that has slings of that size and captive bred, (if they are really captive bred).

The other vendors that I contacted that have moderatum for sale are all juveniles and sub-adults up to 3 inches and are wild caught especially the females.

As far as I know and I've been at this for a little while, someone in Europe had success with getting a fertile sac. That....or what I really believe is a wild caught one was gravid and dropped a fertile sac.

Either way I cannot find captive bred slings, bred here in the U S. from anyone.

Then there are two issues:
1. These so-called captive bred slings from this one vendor are they really captive bred?

2. Any slings from anyone else, (and I cannot find anyone else selling them) would be bred from wild caught parents which bring other problems.

And yes there are people field collecting them and sending some back to Europe. That part is correct and is actively going on. I know from the Texas side as a member here witnessed it in person.

UPDATE:
I found one person mentioning what has been happening in the Rio Grande in the range of A. moderatum. This one is from 2009.

I'm not surprised people are collecting Aphonopelma moderatum and sending them to Europe or selling them domestically. It happens with every other species found around the world, so why not in our own back yard in the U.S.

What surprises me is that someone in the U.S. actually paid to import a U.S. species back to its native country to resell. Somehow that seems more unethical than someone collecting from the wild. Maybe it is because so many people are making money off of it that makes it seem so much worse than buying wild collected stock. At least if you collect your own you know exactly where they came from and know how many you took. If you buy captive bred spiderlings of a U.S. species from someone who imported them from outside the U.S. you would have no idea what their backstory, or provenance, would be. Unless you happen to get a very open and honest individual considering they would know. I have always had the problem of vendors in the U.S. not knowing anything about where their stock came from other than "Europe" or just the name of the source country like "exported from Mexico to Europe."
 

Arachnophobphile

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Messages
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I'm not surprised people are collecting Aphonopelma moderatum and sending them to Europe or selling them domestically. It happens with every other species found around the world, so why not in our own back yard in the U.S.

What surprises me is that someone in the U.S. actually paid to import a U.S. species back to its native country to resell. Somehow that seems more unethical than someone collecting from the wild. Maybe it is because so many people are making money off of it that makes it seem so much worse than buying wild collected stock. At least if you collect your own you know exactly where they came from and know how many you took. If you buy captive bred spiderlings of a U.S. species from someone who imported them from outside the U.S. you would have no idea what their backstory, or provenance, would be. Unless you happen to get a very open and honest individual considering they would know. I have always had the problem of vendors in the U.S. not knowing anything about where their stock came from other than "Europe" or just the name of the source country like "exported from Mexico to Europe."
Yes I have a big problem with it myself and wild caught in general and I don't support it.

It was only discovered that this vendor imported them from Europe in a reply to me

They were the only ones to have slings this small. They had them listed as captive bred. I only asked if the parents were sac mates.

When they replied they had no idea as they came from Europe I was like 'Whaaaaat?'

So that's how that all came about.

I have been looking for A. moderatum slings for a couple of years. They have been rare to find. Recently all of a sudden many vendors have them but only juveniles and sub-adults.

That's a valid point not knowing their background or locale coming from Europe.

The problem I have run into with most of these U.S. vendors running a website is they will not answer many questions. Questions that they deem difficult to want to admit yet a buyer's right to ask and know exactly what they are buying.

If I'm dropping alot of money on slings I want to know they were not the result of inbreeding, wild caught, brown-boxed and this is more me, they let nature take it's course in the sac allowing cannibalism and separating the survivors, (that's more wishful thinking on my part).

I respect the vendors that answer me because most will not. I only have a few vendors I'll buy from now.

One other note, this vendor selling moderatum slings they imported from Europe...*drumroll*.........is from Texas....TADAAAAA!

Irony at it's best.
 
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